sabir
sage
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Pune (India)
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I am looking for my first pair of binoculars. I have gone through the sticky thread on the top of this forum and it has helped me in concluding what my needs are. Now all I need is which brand and model should I go for which would best suit my needs.
I have an Orion XT10i, which is my first and only scope. I am looking for a pair of binoculars to complement this scope. I hope to use the bino for learning the constellations and also as a finder in tandem with the scope. I would also like to use them for terrestrial observation and for camping, trekking etc, so they need to be waterproof. From what I’ve read, I feel a pair of 10X50 binoculars would be perfect for my needs. My budget is around $200, but I may be able to stretch it a bit for something exceptional.
The very little research I’ve done has lead me to two contenders:
1. Pentax 10 X 50 PCF WP II Binoculars. http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=108-110-647-1080-8843
2. Nikon USA - 10 X 50 Action Extreme ATB Binoculars
http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=108-110-647-676-1218-8691
Currently, I’m leaning towards the Pentax (…I know its stupid, but I have a 10mm Pentax XW and I love it  ), but if the consensus were that the Nikon is a better deal, I would go for the Nikon.
If there is any other pair that better suits my needs, I would really appreciate it if you could guide me to it.
Thanks,
Sabir 
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1674
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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The Pentax PCF WP II lists a FOV of 261'. (narrower, but generally sharper out to the edges).
The Nikon AE ATB lists a FOV of 341'. (complaints of softness around the edges).
The Pentax have aspherical eyepiece elements.
The Nikon's do not.
The Pentax optics are FMC.
The Nikon optics are MC.
The Pentax binoculars have a JIS Class 6 waterproof rating. (internal focusing)
The Nikon binoculars do not disclose their waterproof rating.
The Pentax have a focus lock.
The Nikon's do not.
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1770
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (05/24/08 11:52 PM)
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 787
Loc: New Zealand
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From the reviews you will know they both rate highly. One of the issues you have mentioned is ‘I hope to use the bino for learning the constellations and also as a finder in tandem with the scope’. Initially you would want to go for the bino that offers the wider FOV which on paper is the Nikon. The Nikon 10x50 AE's have a 6.5 degree FOV and an Afov of 65 degrees. The Pentax have a 5 degree FOV and a narrower 50 degree Afov. However [there’s always a however!] In a older [2004] review by Edz. He recommends the Pentax above the Nikons “as the Pentax has a sharper wide field image” and the “Pentax has a wider usable field of view”. This also confirms Hallelujahs comments above.
Having used both over the last few months I do tend to agree the Pentax have the edge optically and ergonomically however [there it is again!] personally speaking I do also like the more ‘panoramic’ image the Nikons do offer even though there is increased peripheral edge distortions. For scanning the skies and learning the constellations the wider FOV may suit you better and 'tip the balance'. Ideally if you could use both prior to actually buying you would make a more informed decision. Reading about them is OK to narrow the choice down but using a bino is a personal thing and really you should use both at night so you can make the right choice for you. In the end both will offer you good images at very good value.
http://www.cloudynights.com/documents/nikon.pdf
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35 binos.
80mm Cat.
WO66ED
SV NH 80mm / EQ3
Meade 8in.LX90
Skywatcher Equinox ED120 / Goto HEQ5.
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1674
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
The Nikon 10x50 AE's have a 6.5 degree FOV and an Afov of 65 degrees.
charen,
Nikon 2007 catalog shows AFOV at 65.
Nikon 2008 catalog shows AFOV at 59.2.  Must be a typo. Or maybe not, EdZ shows actual 6.1 degrees FOV. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (05/25/08 02:49 AM)
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 787
Loc: New Zealand
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Hi! Nikon have moved to a 'new' method of measuring Afov, which is based on the on the 'ISO 14132-1:2002' and gives a 'narrower' frame of reference so peripheral distortion is not measured.
I found this out when reviewing the 10x56 Nikon Monarchs recently. EdZ. measurements I presume go on the actual measured FOV and lens diameter of 48mm's - not 50mm.
I was using the non Nikon method to measure Afov - TFOV [6.5] x mag [10x] = Afov - 65 degrees.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/binoculars/Number/2269507/page/7/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
http://www.nikon.com/products/sportoptics/lineup/binoculars/standard/ex_x35x40x50/index.htm
[At bottom of page]
Edited by charen (05/25/08 05:14 AM)
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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As an only pair of all - round hand - held binoculars , for " learning the constellations " and daytime use , I would prefer and recommend a 8 x 42 with a TFOV of at least 7 degrees ahead of a 10 x 50 with a TFOV of around 6 degrees .
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Vincent33
member
Reged: 09/18/07
Posts: 95
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Quote:
As an only pair of all - round hand - held binoculars , for " learning the constellations " ...
I think that the OP can choose the expensive way, a pair of Miyauchi 5x32 (elusive to find ... still waiting for someone to buy them for me in Japan), or the cheap one: a pair of Bushnell XtraWide 5x25, that can be found on eBay for about 40 USD or a bit more.
I own one of them, and their major fault is their reduced "focus past infinity", that makes impossible to me to focus without my eyeglasses, due to my myopia.
An advantage is that, with their reversed Porro design, I was able to focus a whole head from about 7' ... quite a unique feature.
Their optical quality is, as I can judge (not a very affordable opinion), "mean" or "above mean".
I hope other producers will make similar models for this forgotten, niche segment; If Nikon will make a 5x35 or 4x30 EDG, I think i'll cut my venoms to have one! ;-)
Have a nice day.
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4430
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Quote:
As an only pair of all - round hand - held binoculars , for " learning the constellations " and daytime use , I would prefer and recommend a 8 x 42 with a TFOV of at least 7 degrees ahead of a 10 x 50 with a TFOV of around 6 degrees .
Kenny
I would agree with Kenny. The 10x50s may be best for astronomy, but a 7-8x with 40-44mm would be lighter, have a larger FOV, and be a better binocular for terrestrial use.
If at all possible go to a binocular store (optics, astronomy, sporting goods) and try out different binoculars and see which ones you like and feel better in your hands.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Nick Lloyd
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 1641
Loc: cincinnati
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I find the slightly wider field of view (Nikons) to be more comfortable.
Have you considered the Nikon Action Extreme 8x40? Very wide angle... you really feel like you are "out there" in space... although it is not 100% sharp across the field of view.
As far as weight goes... any bino under 35 oz. will be easy to deal with for first-timers.
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"The best scope is the one you use." -rcg
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sabir
sage
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Pune (India)
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Hi guys !! thank you for all your replys.
I would like to try before I buy, but these models are not available here. As a matter of fact, I dont know of any dedicated telsecope or sport optics shop here  ... The market in India for these things is miniscule!
So I'll have to go by what I read here... I tried that with my XT10i and I'm very happy with it... thats what makes CN a great place! 
... any case there are a few stores that keep a few binoculars. I'll go and have a look to get an Idea about the size difference between a 8X40 and a 10X50 if its available! 
Keep those suggestion comming 
Thanks again,
Sabir
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Thanks Sabir !
Actually getting binoculars in YOUR hands and in front of YOUR eyes is by far the best way to find what fits your preferences .
Keep in touch and let us know what you think !
Good luck
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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doug76
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: SE Louisiana
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Well, they probably won't take a dunking, but I have had them out in fog and rain, when fishing or hunting. I refer to my Nikon Action 10x50's, bought at Cabela's, for $100. Dang fine binos, sharp, very sharp.
Doug
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sabir
sage
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Pune (India)
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How about these:
http://www.bigbinoculars.com/ultra50.htm
they are more expenisve, but I dont mind saving for longer if they are significantly better.
Sabir
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1674
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Here is another make & model, similar to the other:
http://www.garrettoptical.com/High-Definition-10x50-Waterproof-Binoculars-p/s50hd-wp.htm
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1007
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Sabir,
I had a 10x50 with a 5 degree field, like the Pentax you are considering. It is easy to get lost in the sky with a field that narrow. A 10x50 is so powerful that it will show very many more stars than you can see naked eye, and with such a narrow field it's harder to relate the very bright stars that serve as "signposts" to where you are looking, so you won't know where you are are half the time. If you really want the depth of a 10x50, I would recommend the larger field of the AE over the better field correction of the Pentax for that reason.
But Kenny is right about the 8x40 size as the ideal all round binocular. If my only pursuit was astronomy, and my only instrument was a binocular, I'd choose a 10x50. But as a "complement to the scope" the 8x40 would go sufficiently deep to provide good alternative views of very dispersed objects, and the wide field would be easier to use. For terrestial use, the 8x40 would be handy and quick, whereas a 10x50 seems big, heavy, and cumbersome.
Ron
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Sabir ,
Before you get TOO excited about the waterproofing and robustness of those binouclars with individual focus , please don't overlook the fact that for most types of terrestrial viewing , they are a pain in the posterior :-)
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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werewolf6977
Lord High Smasher
Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 7445
Loc: Hanover, Ohio
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Them Ultra's sure look like the Orion Resolux, don't they??
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Pete
6" Apogee/LXD55 - "The Beast"
Starhopper 6" Dob - "Shiva"
Spaceprobe 130 EQ - "Spacey"
Bushnell Fatboy
The Abomination
Sun Pak Pro 7500 Platinum Edition
10X25 Bushnell Camo Roofies
7X35 Tasco Classic Plastic (good views though)
7X42 Tasco Rare Bird
10X50 Nikon Actions (Type 7)
15X70 Skymasters - "DroolMeisters"
One ratty old IBM 600E LapTop
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Them Ultra's sure look like the Orion Resolux, don't they?? >
Pete ,
That could be something to do with them being one and the same item ! :-)
Clear Skies
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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doug76
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: SE Louisiana
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Quote:
How about these:
http://www.bigbinoculars.com/ultra50.htm
they are more expenisve, but I dont mind saving for longer if they are significantly better.
Sabir
The specs look good, but the weight bad. Too heavy, unless your going to mount them.
Doug
--------------------
Doug
The Truckstop Astronomer
Meade 12" Lightbridge/Dob Driver II
Celestron C6 SCT
Celestron C6R/Moonlight focuser
Celestron XLT150
Astro-Tech AT80EDT
TOWA 60/700 (under construction)
Celestron CG5-ASGT, CG-4
Celestron Nexstar SE (large)
Meade SWA 34mm
Televue Panoptic 24mm
Pentax XW 10mm, 7mm
------------------------
Astro-Tech AT66ED
Celestron Nexstar SE (small)
Televue Plossl 32mm
Smart Astronomy Solar System 14.5mm
BO/TMB Planetary 9mm, 7mm, 5mm, 4mm, 3.2mm, 2.5mm
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doug76
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: SE Louisiana
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Quote:
Here is another make & model, similar to the other:
http://www.garrettoptical.com/High-Definition-10x50-Waterproof-Binoculars-p/s50hd-wp.htm
Again, good specs, and heavy.
Doug
--------------------
Doug
The Truckstop Astronomer
Meade 12" Lightbridge/Dob Driver II
Celestron C6 SCT
Celestron C6R/Moonlight focuser
Celestron XLT150
Astro-Tech AT80EDT
TOWA 60/700 (under construction)
Celestron CG5-ASGT, CG-4
Celestron Nexstar SE (large)
Meade SWA 34mm
Televue Panoptic 24mm
Pentax XW 10mm, 7mm
------------------------
Astro-Tech AT66ED
Celestron Nexstar SE (small)
Televue Plossl 32mm
Smart Astronomy Solar System 14.5mm
BO/TMB Planetary 9mm, 7mm, 5mm, 4mm, 3.2mm, 2.5mm
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M@ximu$
newbie
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 1
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Sabir! You should search Nikon binoculars and others optics on www.opticsbestbuy.com. There are a good quality binoculars at a reasonable price. With a wide variety of options, it is easy to find a model for you.
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sabir
sage
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Pune (India)
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Hi Maximus!! … Thank you for your reply & links and welcome to the CN family!!
I would like to thank every body for their help and guidance in helping me pick a pair of binoculars!!
I have been researching all day today on what I should go in for, but all I have managed is to thoroughly confuse myself!! ... Please don’t get me wrong; all your help and suggestions have in fact have been instrumental in guiding me so that I don’t land up with something I regret. The only conclusion I have been able to come to so far is that picking a pair of binoculars is FAR more difficult than picking a telescope or eyepieces! 
The Pentax PCF WP II has nice features like Hallelujah has pointed out but it lacks FOV as Charen, Kenny and Ron point out. The point Ron makes about ‘not knowing where you are half the time’ is a very good one. I plan on using these primarily for Astronomy (80%) and occasionally for terrestrial, and hence the decision for 10X50’s. If only the Pentax had a greater fov, my problems would be solved!
Kenny, I have no idea regarding the different types of focus types. All I have ever seen are the ones with the knob in the middle, which raise and lower both Ep’s simultaneously. It would be great if you could educate me a bit about the individual focus type and its pros and cons
Hallelujah, thanks for posting the link for the Garret optical Ultras! They look identical to the ones I posted a link for and the Orions and are also marginally cheaper than them!,but I was unable to find any reviews for them or their bretherin. Doug makes a good point about the weight. What is the max weight an average person built can handle for handheld bino usage?
This leaves me only with the Nikon action extremes...I’m some how not too convinced about them. I’m also contemplating about waiting for a while (long while) and collecting enough for a Fujinon FMT-SX 10x70. Sadly, I donot have the luxury of trying before I buy, so I dont want to spend $200 and not be Happy These seem to be the gold standard and seem to do every thing well. There’s also this scheme on telescopes.com called ‘bill me later’ that is currently offering to defer payments for upto 12 months!! Any body used this or aware about this??...are there any catches??... this scheme has got me thinking about the Fujinons!!
Sabir
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SteveV
member
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 68
Loc: Southern Ore.
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Nice wide FOV, easy to look through for extended periods, can't beat 'em:
Swift 820's
Swift Audubon - BVD
Swift Audubon - Nils Review (older 804's)
Swift Audubon - CN (older 804's)
10X bino's quickly become a chore to hand hold! 8x40's (or there abouts) being more versitile.
Edited by SteveV (05/27/08 07:18 PM)
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Hello again Sabir !
To enable the good people here to help you in this difficult decision , I think you need to decide for yourself , then disclose to us , whether or not you intend to HAND - HOLD these " first binoculars " !
For example , in your last post , you mentioned the Fujinon 10 x 70 -- which , superb as I'm sure it must be , in it's class , is NOT a thing anyone would want to be holding in their hands every day and night of the week !!
As wonderful an instrument as I'm sure it must be , for astronomy , under very dark skies , tripod mounted , it is a rather SPECIALISED instrument , and certainly not one you would want to be carrying around your neck in the daytime for a spot of spontaneous bird watching , for example .
You say your intentions are 80% for astronomy -- for which I happen to regard Individual Focusing ( I.F ) a GOOD thing -- but again , bear in mind that MOST 10x I.F. binoculars also tend to be on the HEAVY side -- and not really designed for hand - held use .
At risk of apparant contradiction , however , I only have one set of I.F binoculars , which happen NOT to be TOO heavy for hand - held use , and also happen to have a TRUE field of view ( 7.2 degrees ) wide enough so as not to easily " get lost " under the stars .
I wrote a review of it , which contained a few points about the I.F function which you may find of interest .
You can see the review here :
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1633
Good luck !
Kenny
--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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sabir
sage
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Pune (India)
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Oops!! That was a BIG Typo! 
I meant Fujinon 10 X 50 ... Is this still too heavy to hand hold?
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1007
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Sabir,
The 10x50 Fujinon, at three pounds in the unarmored version, is a half pound lighter than the Resolux types, but is considered by some people to be too heavy.
For me, it is not too heavy to hand hold, and is so optically outstanding that it's worth a bit of extra trouble. Reclining with it in a big comfortable chair with armrests relieves the burden, and is one of the greatest pleasures that I have discovered in astronomy. But it is large even for a 10x50, too heavy to carry around you neck for long, and the individual focus eyepieces are borderline impossible for typical birdwatching where you are constantly adjusting (10x takes a lot more adjusting than 7x). It is a pretty much a specialty astronomy instrument, but a great one. They come up for $400 on Astromart occasionally, and are so rugged they are a good bet used.
No, choosing a binocular is never easy, especially with our help!
Ron
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Penarin
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/22/04
Posts: 1115
Loc: Orion, IL
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If you're in the market for some 10x50s, I don't see how you can go wrong with either of the two you mentioned in your original post.
As you can see from my sig, I have the Pentax 10x50s, and have had them for a few years now. They are our general purpose binocs- my wife and I use them for hiking, nature, astronomy, etc.
The rain / fog proof feature has come in handy more than once. I don't mind being out in the rain, and it's nice to not have to worry about your binocs if a shower blows in.
Just my 2 cents.
edit-
This is the report that helped me decide on the Pentax 10x50s-
http://www.cloudynights.com/documents/nikon.pdf
(page 8 in particular)
But please note that the review there is for the Pentax PCF WP 10x50, and by the time I made my purchase, the available model was Pentax PCF WP II. Which is a nice little "oops" on my part, but I'm still quite happy with the WP IIs...
--------------------
Meade 6" f/8 refractor
Orion Atlas (EQ6) mount
Oberwerk 25 x 100IF
Pentax 10x50 PCF WP II
Orion Outsider 8 x 40 WA
Edited by Penarin (05/27/08 03:57 PM)
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