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markseibold
sage
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Portland Oregon
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I hope that this might qualify me for a more technical approach to the sketching forum. I have added the original preliminary pencil sketch- Note that the last image I sketched at botttom in pencil was timed at 1140 UT. That is the one I went with for the final pastel of the large prominence on May 14 '08, yet I mistakedly timed the pastel at 1100 UT (in red). "This type of thing has cropped up before and it has always been due to human error- HAL" -I am not sure what category I fall into as my attempts are first artistic intended and then scientific-technical. I'll look forward to any helpful responses. Thanks, Mark
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Erix
Toad Lily
   
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 20449
Loc: Ohio, USA
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Mark, the pencil sketches are observation sketches done at the eyepiece and are perfect material for the sketching forum.
The second pastel sketch belongs in astro art and may not be included in the sketching contest. The reason it is astro art is because, although some sketchers re-sketch their originals, they keep it true to the original and don't embellish their work. Your pastel sketch (done away from the eyepiece) does not match your pencil sketch and has many details added after the fact that are not recorded on your original sketches. In other words, although you've created a very impressive pastel sketch, it isn't an observation sketch.
For instance, when a solar observer/sketcher views, they record at that time the intricate details within the prom to the best of their abilities. In your original sketch, you have none of that where in the pastel sketch, you do. Can you remember all those areas within the prom from memory in order to reproduce them accurately? And for the 11:40UT pencil sketch, you don't have the active region recorded nor the smaller prom or spicules, where you included them in your pastel sketch.
That's where it becomes art. Although you drew a beautiful solar sketch, it technically isn't true to your observation sketch because details were added that weren't recorded initially.
The sketching forum is for observation sketches and sharing tips on how to successfully render them at the eyepiece or naked eye views. The astro art forum is a wonderful place to share works of art done at your leisure. link to astro art forum 
Like I've stated a few times before, the two are completely different forms of sketching. What do you wish to achieve through your sketches? Accuracy or art? If it's striving for accuracy, then we can help you learn how to sketch quickly at the eyepiece to record as much info as possible as accurately as possible. If it's art, then please feel free to visit the astro art forum.
I do have a question for you though. I'm a bit confused at your time. 1105UT would make it just past 5am your local time assuming you are on pacific time in Oregon. Is that correct? We're at -4 hours UT here in Ohio with daylight savings time. Pacific time is -7 hours I believe.
-------------------- Erika
10" LX200 Classic, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, 12" Truss Dob, Orion ED80, WO Binoviewers, 10x50's and 7x50's Binoculars, Rebel XT 350
Having Fun in the Sun!
More solar fun: 2007 July - tracking NOAA10963
Support bacteria. It's the only culture some people have.
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markseibold
sage
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Portland Oregon
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Erika
Thanks for the info. Yes, I did not add the other small spicules in detail in the original final pencil sketch at the bottom of the three but they are there in the upper first pencil sketch- You can reference them.
As for UT time, thanks for remindng me. I always thought that Greenwich Mean Time or "UT" was 8 hours ahead of us except for when we are on Daylight time and then UT is then one less hour or as 7 hours ahead of PDT. So 4 PM in the afternoon here at Pacific time is 11 UT. Am I getting this wrong?
Here is the conversion site- I just checked and PDT is showing -7 at 4PM here or 7 less than 11 UTC. Am I missing something here? It looks right to me for Pacific Daylight Time as 4PM with UT concurently at 11 UT. I thouht the world standard was to refer to UT time as one universal time simultaneously yet to refer to ones location as further reference but everyone refers to the same time at that moment as UT to be universally concurrent. It was 4:05 PM here in Portland and 11:05 UT when I started that preliminary pencil sketch with other small spicules nearby. I made another sketch at 11:25 and the final one at 11:40 to choose the desired main large prominence as it changed with the most dynamism. The smaller proms remained the same so I did not focus on them so much in the pencil sketch to refer to the final pastel. I could detail the rough pencil sketch again if that would qualify my art as technically correct.
Here's the UT site URL for conversion >
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?month=5&day=31&year=2008&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=221&p2=0
Thanks again for any further info,
-Mark
Edited by markseibold (05/31/08 08:06 PM)
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Erix
Toad Lily
   
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 20449
Loc: Ohio, USA
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Yes, that's where the confusion is. 24 hour clock is best used so as to avoid confusion between AM and PM. By writing 1100, it would appear to be 11am. If you were to write 2300, that would be 11PM.
Quote:
Yes, I did not add the other small spicules in detail in the original final pencil sketch at the bottom of the three but they are there in the upper first pencil sketch- You can reference them.
The Sun changes very rapidly. There is a big difference between five minutes, let alone 35 minutes from your first pencil sketch to the last. So your pastel sketch is actually a combination then of both or maybe even all three sketches, plus added embellishments on top of it. I'm sorry, Mark, but that's not an accurate re-sketch, it's art based on pencil observation sketches.
You stated before in the solar forum that you did your (another solar pastel sketch) at 2 or 3 in the morning. It was very different from your pencil observation sketches that you did from the eyepiece. Your pastel sketch looked like it could have been a combination of the two with added embellishments to make it more pleasing to the eye.
My point is that it is perfectly acceptable to create beautiful solar art as long as it's not mistaken for a true rendering done at the eyepiece. The two are completely different from each other and shouldn't be confused. That's why we have two different forums, one for each, here on CN. They are both great venues for enjoying astronomy.
Quote:
I could detail the rough pencil sketch again if that would qualify my art as technically correct.
No, and in fact, you would run into the same problem only using a different media. When you re-sketch, you will add the embellishments again because you won't simply re-sketch exactly what you did at the eyepiece.
Good or bad, eyepiece sketches speak for themselves for what we view at that particular moment. When additional features, no matter how big or small is embellished into the sketch away from the eyepiece, it no longer is an observational sketch. It becomes astro art.
I have plenty of "not eye pleasing" sketches and each one is an important addition to my observation records. It's nice if they are "pretty" but what is important above all else is accuracy and true to the view sketches. By recording all the intricate details there at the eyepiece instead, not only am I doing a true eyepiece rendering, but I am studying the object as best as I can to do so. There's no way I can do that from memory, not with all the star placements (that I can't seem to place accurately enough even as it is), not with lunar shadows that change by the second, and most certainly not with our dynamic Sun that changes right before our eyes. That's why I do sequence sketches a lot of the time. Each sketch, even if only five minutes apart, shows remarkable changes in a prominence.
What I'd suggest for you is to enjoy both parts of your sketching hobby. Include your unembellished solar sketches here in the sketching forum and concentrate on catching more detail and recording it directly at the eyepiece. It's a really good exercise and you'll improve with each sketch.
Then if you would like to create your astro art as well, post those in the astro art forum to share with others that enjoy that side of the hobby.
-------------------- Erika
10" LX200 Classic, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, 12" Truss Dob, Orion ED80, WO Binoviewers, 10x50's and 7x50's Binoculars, Rebel XT 350
Having Fun in the Sun!
More solar fun: 2007 July - tracking NOAA10963
Support bacteria. It's the only culture some people have.
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markseibold
sage
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Portland Oregon
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Erika
I wrote 1105 UT not 11 AM if you see the sketch again at the top as that is the actual 11 UT time simultaneously to our 4 PM here in the Pacific. I worked in the largest computer center on the west coast for over 20 years- We used military or UT time 24/7. The lead supervisor referred to my watch to set the mainframe computer clock as I set my watch to WWV Fort Collins Colorado, the National Bureau of Standards on the shortwave radio band which broadcasts UT time constantly which I listened to since age 13. Forgive me for the bio here. Yes, I understand quite well 11 AM as morning and 2300 as 11 PM at night.
I noticed that Steve Aimes sketches his prominences as rather oversized to the ratio of the suns disc circle on his forms. Is this viewed as technically accurate?
You mentioned that working from memory later is not accurate. Do some people not have photographic memory? How do we know this to be true or not true as to what actual real time obsrvation is from the eyepiece? I think it is interesting that you mentioned the other day how you will observe repeatedly until you finally touch the pencil or chalk to the paper for the first time. Yes I have observed the suns changes for thousands of hours in an h-alpha since I began doing this in 1999 with a spectacular Daystar h-alpha mated to the local clubs 8 inch Cassegrain. I just wish I'd been sketching all those huge prominences back then during solar max in 1999 ~ 2004. Perhaps I'd be in a museum by now?
It is true that I rendered that first sketch on October 13th 2006 after being inspired by yours and Les Cowley’s conte crayon sketches in Spaceweather that afternoon which I decided to complete at 3 AM the following morning with the creative experience of several images of that great prominence as I watched it change dynamically and thus I produced it into a wild abstract that appeared to shock the world as Dr Tony Phillips displayed it for three days on his front page. It also initiated an international art contest in his site that I suggested he ask others to participate in for the Mercury Transit on Nov 8th.
Some people prefer to use the word embellish – I am not sure how that word applies here. Definitions include: Decorate, adorn, embroider, beautify, make fancy, make elegant, emboss, exaggerate, elaborate, enhance, enlarge, increase size, etc. I would choose “Enhance” over these other definitions. Definitely not to add false details. I am merely trying to produce an artists accurate rendering that captures the initial “feeling” of aesthetic nature at that moment it is observed. This is a major part of astronomy. I like to add the ambience of the reality- My hand is actually there while holding the chalk and doing the sketch. I am also not one to manipulate photography of the objects in the sky. I know this is a subject of great controversy in reproduced imagery today in astronomy when we see images from the Internet and TV.
If I may divert slightly here for the sake of example- I know that Timothy Ferris defends his film Seeing in the Dark aired on PBS last fall, where other customers who purchased the film criticize the images simulated through a telescope and onto the movie screen. I admire his books, filmwork and passion for observational astronomy. Ferris retorts in his own review in Amazon.com and states that he degraded images of Mars in the film so as to closely depict the way the planet would actually look trough the telescope to a live observer. Where several customers who purchased the film complained that the images looked too good and over colorful on the screen compared to the live observation and that this would mislead viewers.
Conversely, I am also in concurrence with John Dobson about the importance of live observation vs. photography of images in telescopes, as I have spent much time with him and the local public on the streets here and at schools where I took him. Dobson is extremely controversial about his live observation as we know, where I am not that extreme about it as he is.
I have looked at the art forum but I see no one making intense solar observations and earful renderings there. I thought I would be in the wrong group there and left out of the solar observing group. So I will try to increase my work toward technically accurate art. I hope it will be accepted as such as I have been told al my life that I am in a category that defies description. I take that as a great compliment.
And I love to take the harshest of criticism. I think it goes beyond the rules and becomes perceived language interpretation that begs for more discussion.
I am learning the CN Forum rules now and will make sincere efforts to comply with art vs science.
-Mark
Edited by markseibold (05/31/08 09:35 PM)
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Erix
Toad Lily
   
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 20449
Loc: Ohio, USA
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Mark, sorry. I was speaking figuratively regarding the times. Quote:
I wrote 1105 UT not 11 AM if you see the sketch again at the top as that is the actual 11 UT time simultaneously to our 4 PM here in the Pacific.
What I was trying to say (being specific this time around) is that if you were to use 24 hour clock instead of 12 hour clock for both UT and local time, it would be less confusing between knowing if you are talking about morning or night.
1105 UT appears to be 11:05 AM in Universal Time, or 0400 (4am) your local time. Since it was in fact in the afternoon, had you written it in 24 hour time instead, 2305 UT (1605 your local standard time) there would be no doubt that it was PM instead of AM. I hope I'm making more sense this time.
As for the rest of your post, I was not trying to give harsh criticism. On the contrary, I have told you many times in the past as well as well as in this forum that your sketches are beautiful, which I truly meant. You have a lot of talent, Mark.
You have asked me for advice and guidance in pm's and on the boards. I've tried my best to do just that. 
Best regards,
-------------------- Erika
10" LX200 Classic, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, 12" Truss Dob, Orion ED80, WO Binoviewers, 10x50's and 7x50's Binoculars, Rebel XT 350
Having Fun in the Sun!
More solar fun: 2007 July - tracking NOAA10963
Support bacteria. It's the only culture some people have.
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markseibold
sage
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Portland Oregon
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Erika
My mind is going… I can feel it... I can feel it. I was wrong. I made a terrible mistake. I should have started with 1600 local time (and not 4 PM) and then added 7 to result in 2300 UT. You are right. I was hung up on your comparison in confusing AM with PM when you referred to the UT as either AM or PM; as I know that UT is never referred to as AM or PM; hence the use of a 24 hr clock needs not to delineate AM or PM.
I think I'm losing it so please ‘don't stop’. I need the support and you have been very gracious and courteous.
I know that I can do abstract art but now I know that I should stay away from anything that requires too much technical thought. I apologize and I think my left handed brain is lapsing. You know that left handed people run higher in dyslexia, autism and Asbergers Syndrome. I do not think I am a candidate for these symptoms but now I wonder. But left hander’s also display a higher occurrence of genius or [creative ability.]
My apologies Erika and thanks again for setting my clock straight on this.
-Mark
Edited by markseibold (06/01/08 04:21 AM)
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darkstar528
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 4759
Loc: Hodgenville, Kentucky, USA
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Great discussion about some great sketches and art!!!!!!!
-------------------- Blue skies,
Stephen "Darkstar" Ames
PST, VIXEN 8-24mm,CEMAX 2x Barlow, Thousand Oaks White Light Filter and a Meade Elec EP
CFI, CFII, MEI, working on EIEIO!
BAA Member
My solar site:
http://seemysunspot.com
Live solarcams from around the world:
http://www.seemysunspot.com/live_sun.html
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