STEEL
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Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 71
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I wanted to know if it is determined that the prisms of 20 x60 are undersized. It 'important defect?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
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Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Of the Pentax binoculars that I've measured, none were reduced by more than 1mm. However, I did not measure the 16x60 and I've never had the 20x60 in my hands.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 71
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I am not sure if the prisms are undersized in 20x60, I hope that some person I confirm that not be true. What happens if the prism is smaller?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
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Quote:
What happens if the prism is smaller?
You would have a smaller effective aperture.
Effective Aperture
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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syed
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Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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Undersized prisms cause vignetting. Take a look at the exit pupil.If it is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.Undersized prisms are an indication of cost cutting during the manufacturing process.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
If it is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.
No, that would be an indication of tilt in the prisms. You can have cats eye shaped prisms even if they are not undersized.
There are several methods we have already clearly outlined for testing effective aperture. Those are the methods to check for undersized prisms.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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syed
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Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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So it may be like this that if the exit pupil tends toward lozenge shape then that would be an indication of undersized prisms OR tilt in prisms.Then there would be a better method that will determine for sure if the prisms are undersized.
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syed
member
Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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Stephen Tonkin in "Binocular Astronomy" does say that if the exit pupil is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.
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RichD
super member
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 170
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Isn't Stephen referring to a clipped exit pupil (A flat edge on one side rather than a perfect circle) as opposed to a lozenge shape?
-------------------- Clear skies
Rich
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
So it may be like this that if the exit pupil tends toward lozenge shape then that would be an indication of undersized prisms OR tilt in prisms.Then there would be a better method that will determine for sure if the prisms are undersized.
Well, we can see several things in the exit pupil.
If we see an eliptical (lozenge?) shaped exit pupil, is not an indication of too small prisms. If we see an edge cut off on one side, it is an indication of small prisms. If we see a diamond shape it is an indication of the type of prism being used. So I'm not sure what Stephen had in mind, but at the very least, that statement is confusing.
Read the links I pointed to understand how to measure for a too small prism.
A circular image with a line cutting a chord across one side is an indication of a too small prism. Other than that you can have perfectly round prisms and they can be too small, or you can have diamond shaped exit pupil and it can be full size.
A diamond (lozenge?) shaped exit pupil is an indication of BK7 glass used in the prisms. It doesn't necessarily mean they are too small. It shows the nature of BK7 glass when used as a prism. The prism aperture could be full, and you would still see it as diamond shaped.
As I stated earlier seeing an eliptical shaped exit pupil, or as I sometimes refer to it as a cat's eye, is an indication of a tilted light path, not necessarily a too small prism. We see this sometimes when the prisms are being tilted to align images, but either the wrong prisms were tilted or there are other problems in the optical alignment requiring too much tilt that result in a not round exit pupil. But I will stress again, this is not an indication of a too small prism. You can get an eliptical exit pupil even in a binocular with prisms that are not too small.
The appropriate tests are outlined in the reference link above. One test is the direct reading of a scale with a loupe, but although that may show vignette is reducing aperture, it doesn't necessarily indicate the prisms are too small, so further investigation is necessary to determine whether the reduction is due to a baffle or the prism aperture.
Simply checking the size of the exit pupil does not necessarily give the answer. First magnification must be verified. Once magnification is verified, then you can use the multiple masks test to check exit pupil sizes and verify aperture. If there are no baffles interfering, then this will confirm a too small exit pupil.
So for the most part, other than the straight line chord mentioned above, there may be no visual indication that the prisms are too small. A proper investigation to reveal a too small prism involves checking baffles, prism aperture and magnifiaction. Without checking those, you cannot reveal if the prisms are too small. And even if they are too small, they can still produce a perfectly round exit pupil.
But now I'm repeating myself. All of this is explained in the link above. So please refer to that link for full explanations.
edz
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STEEL
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Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 71
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Can I stay calm which is a 20x real?
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AV in CMH
sage
   
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 282
Loc: Columbus Ohio
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Recently I and dropped broke my 15 x 70mm binoculars. Because of this I’ve been following this and other threads on the Pentax 20 x 60mm as I have been considering buying them as a replacement. To me these are a means to a close up view using a relatively low weight reasonably price instrument. The reviews on this site with the exception of this thread make me think that the quality and performance of this binocular is very good. Am I wrong about the reports on this binocular?
I certainly understand the disappointment in discovering that the characteristics of something like a binocular is less than expected. However, putting the potential loss of aperture and less than perfect exit pupil aside how is the view? Can you see a sharp flat field out to 90%? If the effective aperture turned out to be 58mm rather than 60mm would that outweigh a sharp flat field? Given the market, is there another binocular with similar characteristics at a like price?
If possible and given the large amount of positive comment on Pentax in general would it not be reasonable to return these for another sample?
Peace, thanks,
Anthony
Edited by AV in CMH (06/09/08 10:15 AM)
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oneaudiopro
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Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 78
Loc: aurora, colorado
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I say ignore the unsubstantiated myths and rumors. The Pentax binos are superb and the only downside that has ever been written about them is their smaller field of view, which is normal for most high power instruments. Buy them, enjoy them, and if you're like me............will never sell them
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 71
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I think that the Pentax is a great binocolo.I benefits of quality optics and mechanics are excellent and not make it a problem to 2 mm in diameter on the loss.
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oneaudiopro
member
Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 78
Loc: aurora, colorado
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No one has ever documented any "loss" in the 20X60's. Why do these myths and rumors continue to poliferate?
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AV in CMH
sage
   
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 282
Loc: Columbus Ohio
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Good question.
Perhaps by next week I can let you know about the view with the ones I ordered.
I think that it is part of my nature and perhaps of many on this forum to look just as closly at the equipment details as we are to look at the sky. I have to be careful and remember that its about the balance between value and performance and use and not just one of the factors.
Tony
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BillC
on a new path
   
Reged: 06/04/04
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Loc: Washington, USA
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Rumors will be with us as long as they are good for conversation starters and as long as those who are NOT SURE keep getting their talking points from those who DON'T KNOW.
Cheers,
Bill
-------------------- William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I have no reason to believe other than that this Pentax model is a true 20 x 60 , but even it proved to be , for example , a 18 x 56 in reality , if I owned one , so long as I were happy with the quality of build and with what I saw through it , I probably wouldn't mind so much .
Of course , though , with a 2.2 degree TFOV , if it WERE only 18x magnification , then the AFOV would be down to 39.6 degrees -- so it would be highly unlikely that I WOULD be happy with what I saw through it ! :-)
Regards Kenny
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
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STEEL
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Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 71
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(AV in CMH) Even in a few weeks I'm buying the 20x60, however I hope it is a 20x true and equally as real diameter.
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patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 594
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
...I hope it is a 20x true...
I doubt it'll be exactly 20x ...do you need exactly 20x and not 19.5x or 20.5x ?
-------------------- Patrick
8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype
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