SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
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A polite suggestion to use the more conventional ID to avoid confusion is fine.
I look forward to the day when it stops at that.
SJS
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6787
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
interesting thread here, having only tried the Messier and Herschel list I had no idea there was a controversy involved with this one. I think David makes some good points, and personally I wish using the NGC designation was more common for Messier items because since I started with those I have remembered them as M41 instead of its NGC designation. This isn't a big deal most of the time but now that I have started the globular cluster observing program (which does use NGC designators) is hard for me to tell if I have already observed an item or not. Anyway, interesting thread.
Actually, the Messier Catalog pre-dates the New General Catalog (NGC) by around a century (and there aren't as many objects to remember in the Messier catalog than in the NGC), so the Messier number tends to be the one which is used for an object first, although this is not always the case. Then, there is the case of one of the "missing" Messier Objects, M102. It eventually became clear from studies of the writings of Messier and Mechain that M102 was probably just a duplicate observation of M101. However, around 1917, a suggestion was made by Camille Flammarion that M102 had actually been the galaxy NGC 5866. I still find a few software catalogs for telescope control that link M102 to M101 and ignore NGC 5866 as a Messier object, even though today, that galaxy has sort of been "adopted" into the Messier Catalog and assigned the number M102. Thus, this is one case where the NGC number appears to be dominant over the "Messier" number. For those interested, a nice summary of the M102 controversy can be found here:
http://www.maa.clell.de/Messier/E/m102d.html
Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6300
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Quote:
A polite suggestion to use the more conventional ID to avoid confusion is fine.
I look forward to the day when it stops at that.
SJS
I suppose that I could look forward to the day when the misleading term catalog is replaced by the word list but things being what they are I don't expect that to happen. 
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Brian W
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Negros Oriental
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hi, because I live near the equator most of the on line lists do not show all of my skies so I have gone another route. I am exploring the skies by constellations. It is not a problem using on line resource's to compile a list of objects that fit into both my scopes and my skies limitations. I certainly won't be getting a certificate for my wall but it is a lot of fun.
Brian
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Orion 4.5" short tube reflector EQ mount
Meade 8" LightBridge
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6300
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Brian,
Here's a list of southern objects, which, rather ironically, was compiled by a man named Caldwell.
http://www.seds.org/Messier/xtra/similar/JCaldw.html
There's also the Astronomical League's Southern Sky Telescope Club list.
Do you have a copy of the excellent, but very expensive, Hartung's Astronomical Objects for Southern Telescopes: A Handbook for Amateur Observers?
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Brian W
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Negros Oriental
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Thanks for the lists Dave. Never hurts to have more datum. One of the problems I have found with 'lists' is that if I set up a data base for 1 list I often neglect to put it in another list so I am beginning to loose what I have found. Trying to solve this problem by using the SAC data base found in AstroByte.
Brian
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Orion 4.5" short tube reflector EQ mount
Meade 8" LightBridge
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stevecoe
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2130
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Brian;
You can have the raw SAC data here:
www.saguaroastro.org
I put it together in a zip file that has Excel, comma delimited and text file formats.
Hope that helps;
Steve Coe
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150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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One of the finest Messier guidebooks is Kenneth Glyn Jones, Messier's Nebulae and Star Clusters. It includes brief excerpts from the old observational reports, decent finder charts and sketches, good discussions of the objects, and even some commentary about what's in the neighborhood of each object.
In addition, it has an excellent biography of Messier, a great essay on the scopes he used, tips on observing deep sky objects, the story of the missing Messiers and the detective work around them, etc. It's really a classic.
Jones is also the person who edited the Webb Society's Deep-Sky Observer's Handbook series which is also good in its own right, though without the rich descriptions and flowing prose you're seeking.
A query for folks-- does anyone know if the much newer 2nd edition of the Jones Messier book contains all the features, write-ups, gems from the 1st edition? I'm browsing amazon.com right now to find out, but maybe someone who knows can chime in, too!
Cambridge University Press put out the hardback of it in 1991, but a paperback was just released this January! The original hardback has the wonderful feature of being able to lie flat on an observing table. I doubt the paperback version can do that, but of more importance is the content!
Edited by Paul_R (06/10/08 05:27 PM)
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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Steve, is there a downloadable Excel file of the main Saguaro 100 DSOs?
I see links for the incredible 7,000+ objects file, but IIRC, there was a manageable list of 100+ interesting DSOs (Saguaro's NGC Best or some such) floating around at one point. That'd be great to have!
Oh, wait, I do see an online usable 100 NGC Best page or a book to order. Perhaps that's the only form it's available in.
Edited by Paul_R (06/10/08 05:34 PM)
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stevecoe
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2130
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Paul;
No, there is no Excel file for any of the shorter SAC databases. You know you could pull them into Excel, sort on Messier and then the brightest NGC, put that all together and make your own Excel of the best of.
Just a thought;
Steve Coe
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150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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Steve, a good thought! I'll have to see how well my broadband connection and Excel version work in handling 7,000+ records!
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gripweed44
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 905
Loc: PDX
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I am finding the Caldwell's to be way more difficult than the Messier's.
I did the Globular Cluster club after the Messier. I did it manually. That was a real eye opener to the small nature of the objects off th M list.It was a great learning experience. NGC 7006 and M13 are way different. When looking for 7006 the hunt is on!
JOhn
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John
Omega Centauri is the finest Globular I have seen with my own eyes.
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SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
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Many of the optional programs weren't around after I did the AL Messier.
After the Bino Messier and Deepsky I took on the Herschel 400.
Stephen Saber
PAC/Astronomical League
www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx
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xfile101
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/08/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Ocean Gate, NJ
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Quote:
Knisely 132
From now on I'm calling the E.T. Cluster Knisely 132, I think it has a nice ring to it and for some reason it's stuck in my mind as such but is the "i" a long "i" or short? I assume the "K" and "e" is silent? So if my assumptions are correct it would be pronounced Neigh-slee, right? 
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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Stephen, what scope did you use for the Herschel 400? What advice would you have others contemplating doing that?
I almost phrased my question too casually as this: "How did you find the Herschel 400?" That would have led to such tongue-in-cheek answers as "Practice, practice, practice" or "By star-hopping" or "By looking up!" 
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SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
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Hi Paul-
Pretty straightforward stuff.
8"SCT/RDF from 6th mag skies and well-planned search sequences.
And alot of patience with clouds and Luna. Some use various filters to coax detection/detail. I did not.
In fact I think the number may appear more daunting than the majority
of relatively accessible treasures.
Stephen Saber
PAC/Astronomical League
www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx
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dlferree
super member
Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 119
Loc: Rio Rico, Arizona
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Paul,
I used my 10" dob and also have dark skies, around mag 6. With that said, I agree with Stephen about the shear number of objects and the time it'll take to complete. Even with dark skies and a 10" their are a few objects that were difficult. Don't remember them all, but I do remember taking multiple nights to find one such object in Leo. After finding it, I realized I was in the right area each night, but the trans/seeing were such that I was unable to detect it. Good luck and enjoy the list.
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Dave
DSH-10
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6300
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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NGC 6118 is generally considered to be the most difficult object on the H400 list and it certainly was for me. I was unable to see the slightest hint of it, despite repeated attempts, through the 17 and 20-inch classical Cassegrains at the ASH Naylor Observatory and at a friend's private observatory with somewhat darker skies. I finally logged it at Stellafane ten years ago using Phil Harrington's venerable 8" f/7 Criterion Newtonian.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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So, who put together the Herschel 400? Were they sadists?
Isn't there a top Herschel list floating around? That is, the best of the Herschels?
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6787
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
So, who put together the Herschel 400? Were they sadists?
Isn't there a top Herschel list floating around? That is, the best of the Herschels?
No, they weren't sadists, although a few of the objects can be tough in modest apertures. The list was put together by a group of amateurs from the Ancient City Astronomy Club back around 1980 or so. All of the objects were observed by these people in apertures six inches and above, so they can all be seen in that size scope. Indeed, Jay Freemen has "detected" pretty much all of them in only a *55mm refractor*:
The Herschel 400 List -- Brighter Than You Think
As for a "top Herschel" listing, no, there isn't one, but many of the better Herschels are found in a number of deep-sky observing lists. In fact, I consider about 145 of them to be true "showpiece" objects for apertures 8 inches and above. Many of the rest are quite interesting and worth observing as well. However, there are some challenges in the Herschel 400, as the list was made to give the observer a bit of a test of their abilities (nothing worth doing is necessarily easy). Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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