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PhilH
sage
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 233
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Your post was thoughtful and well written, with only one typo. I don't think you submitted it to peer review. You were able to produce a good piece of work because you are a good and conscientious writer.
Only one typo? See, I am getting better! 
Quote:
On the other hand, I have frequently had the misfortune of spending $59.95 on a 750 page computer programming book only to find three misspellings and a technical error in the first paragraph of Chapter 1, and things usually go downhill from there. Peer review does no good if both author and reviewer are illiterates.
Absolutely!! In that case, I'd really have to question the publisher's quality control. Or rather, the lack thereof. That sort of thing is inexcusable.
Closer to home, I know of a publisher of many an amateur astronomy book whose in-house proofreading is about as poor as your computer programming book. Further, their printing quality, especially illustrations, is horrible. But none of that prevents them from charging top, top dollar for their product.
But I digress. One thing that I think both magazines should do to bring them into the electronic age -- and this idea has already been mentioned here, so I'll just cast my supportive vote -- is to produce electronic archives of past issues, perhaps as searchable PDF files. Maybe market them in per-decade bundles. I can tell you from a research point of view, I would find that invaluable. Rather than having to thumb through piles of back issues that I have in boxes in my basement, it would be so much easier just to type in a title or phrase and have related articles pop up.
Perhaps Tony or Sean could discuss S&T's resistance. Possibly projected cost versus return?
-------------------- Phil Harrington
"Binocular Universe" Columnist, Astronomy magazine
Author: Star Ware || Star Watch || Touring the Universe through Binoculars || et al...
http://www.philharrington.net
http://www.observingsites.com
"Two eyes are better than one!"
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1531
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
One thing that I think both magazines should do to bring them into the electronic age -- and this idea has already been mentioned here, so I'll just cast my supportive vote -- is to produce electronic archives of past issues, perhaps as searchable PDF files. Maybe market them in per-decade bundles. I can tell you from a research point of view, I would find that invaluable. Rather than having to thumb through piles of back issues that I have in boxes in my basement, it would be so much easier just to type in a title or phrase and have related articles pop up.
Perhaps Tony or Sean could discuss S&T's resistance. Possibly projected cost versus return?
Outstanding idea. I'm sure of sales of the old Gleanings for ATMs and Walter Scott Houston articles would be a substantial revenue generator for S&T. I let my Astronomy subscription lapse about 15 years ago, but I would also love to see what they would have to offer from their archives.
-------------------- Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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GJJim
sage
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Outstanding idea. I'm sure of sales of the old Gleanings for ATMs and Walter Scott Houston articles would be a substantial revenue generator for S&T. I let my Astronomy subscription lapse about 15 years ago, but I would also love to see what they would have to offer from their archives.
Creating an archive of issues since the mid-'90s is probably straightforward, it's the previous 55 years and 50,000+ pages that might prove tricky. Done right, with searchable content and/or a top-notch index, we're looking at a project that could cost anywhere from $150K to $500K. Would it ever pay for itself?
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photonovore
Moonatic
   
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2472
Loc: tacoma wa
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There is already a searchable pdf archive of S&T (and most other magazines) that extends into the mid/early 90's --your public library's internet accessible electronic magazine database, large ones are Gale or Proquest. Virtually all articles are available in their entirety including illustrations. And it is free to library card holders--which are also free. Prior issues are typically maintained in hardcopy in the stacks going back to the 50's. Let's not be lazy--it is all at your local library or accessible through their website, (unless perhaps you live in a more podunk place than Tacoma, WA...)
I'd also point out that S&T has around 70,000 subscribers who have made a monetary commitment--while the largest internet forum (here) has 25,000 total members, despite membership requiring no monetary commitment whatsoever. This would suggest that more people pursue their amateur astronomy interest sans internet than we internet users assume...
People who tout the imminent domination of the internet over print media always gloss over several salient points.
The first is cost. Computers have a significant one. If one's interest is specifically in astronomy--and no interest for the rest the internet famously offers (Utube vids, political blogs, social networking and "you-know-what" is about it that is legal anymore--and unique to the net experience) what economical sense does it make to spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of equipment just to access what will eventually be covered, more accurately & succinctly, in a 40$/yr magazine?
The second is the skills required. Not only those involved in maintaining a computer system, but those skills involved in effectively editing the information to be found on the internet for relevant value. Unfortunately, even the most computer savvy generation (18-30) has a distinct deficit in the latter. Knowledge, however extensive, about games, myspace, mp3, videos, shopping and cellphone texting does not translate into the ability to effectively use the net as an effective, efficient and accurate research tool. Not my opinion, BTW, but the findings of innumerable surveys quantifying the ITL illiteracy of today's university students. an example
The third is ongoing maintenance of equipment. Another significant expense (without end) and another significant skillset. What percentage of "computer users" are able to install & format a harddrive, troubleshoot program/hardware conflicts, repair virus infections, even install a new operating system without outside, often paid, assistance? I have some idea-- as a member of our household used to work for one of those "Geek4Rent" outfits...and there was certainly no shortage of work.
The fourth is portability. Home computers are not, even within the home. Laptops, portable yes, but are also prime theft targets while one is 'porting them about--but books, well...not so much, huh? (I don't even own a book worth 200$-- let alone a couple of thousand.)
The fifth is speed limitations (broadband has finally plateaued in the US (in case you missed the story--infrastructure and expense issues are mostly responsible apparently). Also, specific to astronomy, it is a no-brainer that those who have the darkest skies over their homes are also the most likely to be physically restricted to dial-up net access--which makes computer use in this day & age much more frustrating as well as much more usefully limited.
And the sixth is cost of access. An "internet subscription" for broadband runs about 480$ a year. (wow!) That's a lot of magazine subscriptions or discretionary newsstand purchases. You know, this makes me wonder how much, in toto, i'd really be missing, information-wise, if i just shut off my computer and went exclusively with print media in the pursuit of this hobby?
All of these factors function to constrain the continued growth and popularity of internet use well into the foreseeable future.
Here are a couple of telling datapoints that speak to the sustained popularity of print media (and fly in the face of conventional wisdom--whatever that is):
1)Gen Y (18-30yrs) and the heaviest library users (100% for printed resources, 65% for internet use.) ; the next highest rated group are those over 72.
2) "Those who use the public library to look through newspapers and magazines in these cases have a decidedly younger bent. More than half (51%) of those in Gen X and Gen Y (ages 18-42 years) say they did that at the library, compared with 29% of those older than age 42 years." Bet this is a surprise to many of you...but considering the extensive popularity the free big city weeklies have among literate youth...maybe not so much. (both points sourced from recent Pew research reports)
My overriding point is that those who foresee the impending obsolescence of print media--and the overriding importance of net media-- may be both premature and a bit digitally overenthusiastic. We should keep in mind that computers, necessary to access the internet, are not simple & reliable "appliances" like television sets have come to be by any stretch--nor is such simplicity & reliability in the offing. They are much less egalitarian than print media--this goes directly to relative expense of "operation & acquisition". And last, more misinformation is spread by the internet than print media ever disseminated (tabloid press excepted--perhaps?) on any subject--this follows directly from the lack of discretionary and ITL skills within the general computer user population.
The fact is that people profit from the authoritative editing services that print media generally provides. And by the look of the statistics, it appears at least the younger generation knows it too. Perhaps this speaks to the fact that statements prefaced with "I read on the internet that...." often elicit the same eye-rolling response from listeners as "I read in the National Enquirer that...."... 
Computers are really as much of a hobby as astronomy is. Yes they intersect significantly, but still I suspect they intersect much less than computer hobbyists, like most CN enthusiasts additionally are, tend to assume.
-------------------- Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
   
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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We already have available on our website an archive of everything from june (or july) 1996 on, including all CCD Astronomy issues, and Skywatch. I created them myself back in 2003, and we continue to add to it every month.
The problem with issues previous to that date, everything needs to be scanned, because it was pre-digital.
When I started in the ad department, I researched the price of digitizing everything from 1940 on, but at the time it was cost prohibitive.
As I'm not involved in the production end of the magazine, I don't know the current logistics.
I'm all for making a digital version available immediately when the issue is ready, perhaps as a supplimental to a subscription. How many readers would like to read the issue at the same time as everyone else, while still waiting for the US mail to slooowwwly come through?
-------------------- 12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
Edited by swalker (07/06/08 07:29 PM)
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4301
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Given that it's the same content, I'm happy to wait for the mail.
-------------------- - Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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howard
member
Reged: 03/19/05
Posts: 56
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If the mag is going to be printed, it might as well be durable. Go back (S&T) to the durable binding so I can once again put it in my back or coat pocket and carry it around with me for a week or more, take it outside etc...If it is going to be cheap, not durable, difficult to store - might as well go digital, though this is not my preference. But I would pay more for both a higher quality mag (along the lines of Nat Geo or American Scientist) and nominally ore for online PDFs.
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4301
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Just as counterpoint, if a magazine became available only as a downloadable PDF file, I would terminate my subscription. That to me is not an acceptable alternative to a magazine.
-------------------- - Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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PhilH
sage
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 233
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
We already have available on our website an archive of everything from june (or july) 1996 on, including all CCD Astronomy issues, and Skywatch. I created them myself back in 2003, and we continue to add to it every month. The problem with issues previous to that date, everything needs to be scanned, because it was pre-digital. When I started in the ad department, I researched the price of digitizing everything from 1940 on, but at the time it was cost prohibitive. As I'm not involved in the production end of the magazine, I don't know the current logistics. I'm all for making a digital version available immediately when the issue is ready, perhaps as a supplimental to a subscription. How many readers would like to read the issue at the same time as everyone else, while still waiting for the US mail to slooowwwly come through?
True, but that's not what I was thinking of. To clarify my original statement, I'm not interested in the availability of a single article per se, but rather, full issues only. I'm thinking more along the line of the Internet Archive Text Archive. (Sidebar: this is a wonderful way of expanding your collection of antique astronomy books! For instance, do a search for Garrett Serviss and you'll come up with just about all of his titles, both astronomy and science fiction.)
-------------------- Phil Harrington
"Binocular Universe" Columnist, Astronomy magazine
Author: Star Ware || Star Watch || Touring the Universe through Binoculars || et al...
http://www.philharrington.net
http://www.observingsites.com
"Two eyes are better than one!"
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desertstars
Deja moo
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
I'm all for making a digital version available immediately when the issue is ready, perhaps as a supplimental to a subscription.
Not too long ago there was an issue of S&T out there in a pdf format, as an experiment. (I remember this because I thought someone was pulling a fast one on you guys and contacted you and Rick to try and find out what was going on. Had my finger on the moderator button, yessiree... ) Once we were assured that it was legitimate, I gave it a good look. My conclusion was that, should it be made available as a subscription option, I would switch to it. Like many of you, I keep my issues of S&T (as well as any other astronomy magazine I pick up at the bookstore). What I do not have is plenty of storage space for old magazines, so having a downloadable version of S&T would solve a problem for me.
-------------------- Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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kfred
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2005
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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I consider PDF as an enhancement to the printed version but, not a replacement for it.
Fred
-------------------- River Cam - Cambridge England
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PhilH
sage
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 233
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
I consider PDF as an enhancement to the printed version but, not a replacement for it.
Fred
I agree completely with Tom W. and Fred. A PDF version would certainly not be in lieu of a traditional, paper copy, but rather, in addition to. Like Tom W., my available storage space is limited (to say nothing of my non-filing system). A PDF version would allow instant access to an issue rather than have to dig through striated layers of paper until I find the issue I need.
Any, just an idle musing, wishful thinking, if you will.
-------------------- Phil Harrington
"Binocular Universe" Columnist, Astronomy magazine
Author: Star Ware || Star Watch || Touring the Universe through Binoculars || et al...
http://www.philharrington.net
http://www.observingsites.com
"Two eyes are better than one!"
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Newstar One
newbie
Reged: 11/17/07
Posts: 3
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Validation: I've subscribed to Astronomy magazine for 30+ years and Sky and Telescope for nearly as long. I was Astronomy's first ad guy during the reign of Richard 1 and have kept up with the business over the years. In fact, several people who are now working or have once worked for Kalmbach also worked with me at the local newspaper.
Rod's article was, as always, articulate and thoughtful. The costs of producing a physical product like a magazine are daunting-- paper is the single greatest expense and the largest portion of the payroll is devoted to non-editorial people. Online, that's simply not a problem.
I don't know the astro magazines' circulation these days, although it is probably down. Ad rates don't alwways reflect this because costs remain fixed and rates are driven by internal considerations. The difference between printing 125,00 magazines and 100,000 is minimal, but other costs dictate the rates and they can't be controlled easily other than by releasing staff.
(My sympathies to Kelly Beatty, by the way. He is one classy guy and I'm sure he'll land on his feet after being victimized by two poor decisions on new magazines. Remember that magazine on digital astronomy? Good magazine, bad business. Anyway, back to the future.)
Rod did not mention oen important factor in the economics of magazines: renewal rate. It costs a LOT of money to replace lapsed subscriptions, but both mags have very high renewal rates. This means a guaranteed audienced for advertisers, and like it or not that pays most of the bills. This is why American Heritage sends me the magazine two years after my subscription lapsed. The economy has affected advertisers like everyone else, and for the public the cost of nonessentials like hobby gear is easily reduced. This is the primary reason why the magazines are smaller: loss of advertising base. When the economy improves after 1-20-09, magazines will get larger.
BTW, I did forcefully express my view on S&T's awful paper to Rick Feinberg. He was good enough to respond and, yes, it was all economically driven. Still, the magazine looked sleazy for a few months there.
I suspect that there will always be a base of amateurs like me who just enjoy the permanence and ease of use that magazines bring. A comfy chair, dish of butter pecan, a blues CD--bring it on. Still, I use the net often to order gear-- excessively, according to my wife-- and current information is always accessible. So for me paper and electrons are compatible and even complementary.
The acqusition of magazines by investor owners will continue; both of the astronomy mags are in that cart. Kalbach killed a couple of Astromedia publications soon after the acquisition, as did S&T's owners. Kalmbach's money comes from scale modeling, mostly railroads, and it isn't hard to imagine them taking a loss in that sector.
Put it all together and the magazines are in trouble. There may well be a shakeout, but as long as astronomy and S&T can retain their subscription base at a profitable level, they'll be here. And so will I.
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Mr. Mike
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 858
Loc: Churchville, NY
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Some interesting points and comments here. I have been out of the hobby for a few years so I too let my Astronomy subscription lapse. Recently, I rejoined the hobby and was wondering if I should re-subscribe or not to one of the magazines. I may do it for a year just to see... but honestly, I have been spoiled by the diverse and quick nature of internet forums and the like. I agree with those that claim that on the internet you end up with too many opinions... as in "That scope is a great value" to "That scope sucks" and everything in between. So, what do you beleive?? 
Anyways, IMO, Astronomy magazine & Sky and Telescope for that matter should concentrate on: - Viewing techniques
- Starhopping through specific constellations and/or areas of the sky that are currently in view. Astronomy used to do this each issue, IIRC.
- Gear reports that arent written seemingly by paid schills. I mean, if the eyepiece performs badly, please tell us so even if its made by Meade or Televue.
- Dont go overboard with cosmology stuff.... I mean, I want to understand the Universe and God too, but I dont want to read about cosmic radiation or radio waves from 15 billion years ago every issue, ya know?
At the risk of sounding too simple.... just get back to the basics. I mean the magazines are called Astronomy and Sky & Telescope so IMO 99% of the articles and features should be just about those topics. Forget global warming or "sciency" articles(BARF). Forget red-shifting stars that we cant observe anyways. Forget building your own scopes... sorry but the majority of subscribers arent going to build a scope so using pages for this just doesnt make sense.
-------------------- Stellarvue NG 80mm ED
Meade 7x50 Binos
Pentax XW 5mm
Meade 5K UWA 8.8mm
Vixen LVW 13mm
Vixen LVW 22mm
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4301
Loc: Inner Solar System
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More ads with scantily-clad young women. (Hey, if we're making a list, here,...)
-------------------- - Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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928rob
member
Reged: 07/31/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Walnut Creek, California
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I agree with you. I also used to get NightSky and liked it. Besides getting Astronomy and S&T, I also subscribe to Sky at Night and find that this magazine has more to offer then Astronomy/S&T; I also receive these two online. Liede-Marie
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chexmix
sage
Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Arlington, MA, USA
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Quote:
Forget building your own scopes... sorry but the majority of subscribers arent going to build a scope so using pages for this just doesnt make sense.
I differ from you on a number of points but would like to single this one out: do you have figures to back this up? Your use of the word "majority" strongly suggests that you do - so please share.
But even if this _is_ the case ... even if the % of subscribers interested in this topic is relatively low ... does it make no sense to try to _build_ interest in the subject?
One of my main complaints about S & T as it is now is that the articles by Gary Seronik on telescope making are so short, they are hardly articles. This subscriber would like to see more. To me, the two main words in the name "Sky and Telescope" should be each as important as the other, or nearly: and for me the word "Telescope" is not exhausted by reviews of commercial products.
My Humble Opinion only.
-------------------- 8" Discovery DHQ
Celestron C102-HD
9x63 Orion mini-giants
(2) Frontally-placed visual organs, incl. lens, vitreous/aqueous humors, assorted rods, cones.
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spaceydee
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 15346
Loc: Where the Kittens Are
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There's plenty of interest in telescope making in my opinion. Look at our ATM forum, and I can say although I never built one, I certainly dreamed of doing so. If I did, certainly a lot of the younger crowd would as well.
-------------------- Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1531
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
When the economy improves after 1-20-09, magazines will get larger.
That's pretty funny coming from someone who is presumably old enough to remember Jimmy Carter.
-------------------- Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
   
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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To me, telescope making isn't just about building a scope from scratch. I've never built a scope completely, but I have made parts (or have them fabricated by friends) to modify a scope to better meet my needs.
I've made plenty of tube rings, focuser modifications, mirror cell adaptations, and lots of adapters for equipment. Also I nearly finished a mirror. That part just didn't hold my interest as much as other aspects of the hobby.
-------------------- 12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
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