SkyHound
sage
Reged: 03/20/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Dark Skies Il.
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Well in the last week I have waited for info on the test results from the oven and wet lab on Phoenix, Checked every web sight and blog everyday...I't like being 10 again and Christmas eve day just won't move along..
The out come of the next few weeks may either strengthen my personal beliefs about Mars or change my mind set completly. But the waiting is hard..I just don't understand why so little about the results has been heard..By now they have to have at least a chemical finger print or two..Come on NASA throw the dogs some table scraps..
 Anyone else out there getting a little nervous or tense!!! 
Clear Skies!!!
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RCX400 16"
Tak. TOA 150
Eos 20Da
MN67
12" Meade Starfinder Dob
http://www.space.com/amazingimages/?page=homepagex&member_id=00833526&cat=s&m=0&p=
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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Patience...
The science teams are probably analyzing existing data and deciding what needs to be done next. That takes time.
They are probably also entering the phase where data needs to be guarded for either a major press release and/or future publication. High profile journals like Science and Nature will not publish anything that has already been released via other means ("it's old news").
-S
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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Looks like the Phoenix folk have release a status report.
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
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davidpitre
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1363
Loc: Central Texas
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I have been experiencing similar frustrations. At first I my attention was rapt. But we've gotten very little except a few images.
Certainly there should be chemical analysis available.
First I hear about trouble with the oven door, then that scientific data has been lost due to computer errors, then that there have been short circuits.
Problems happen, but feed us what you got or at least give us a synopsis.
I don't buy the "it's got to go to "Nature" or "Science" first. We paid for the thing. Obviously raw data is meaningless to most people. But I seriously doubt NASA is still sitting around on raw data.
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David
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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If folk feel strongly about this, they can always write to the Phoenix outreach folk or post to the Phoenix blog.
-S
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 3978
Loc: Inner Solar System
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That seems a little strange to have to write them, complaining that they're not telling us anything. As has been pointed out, we (the public) are footing the bill; why are they being so reticent in releasing any information to us?
(What are they hiding, hmmmm?)
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6499
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
That seems a little strange to have to write them, complaining that they're not telling us anything. As has been pointed out, we (the public) are footing the bill; why are they being so reticent in releasing any information to us?
(What are they hiding, hmmmm?)
I don't think they are hiding anything. True science takes time to get it right, which is far more important than getting it now. Most of the more prominent results from the MER rovers has come many months to a few years after the intial observations were made, so one just has to be patient and wait. I will be happy to wait until they get enough data to release for the public, but I want *good* data and not something quick and dirty (and possibly wrong). Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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It takes a lot of effort to make things happen in the field of planetary sciences. To go from getting a spacecraft there, getting it to do its thing, analyzing the data, determining what needs to be done next, and repeating as necessary takes time. In parallel to this, there is the question of what to report on and in what venues (via conferences, journals, press releases, etc.).
Yes, the public has is footing the bill. However, it is in the form of contracts with the scientists involved. These scientists, who have been responsible for setting the science objectives, building the instruments, and determining the actions of the spacecraft, have spent many years of their lives doing so. This ultimately allows them (as stated in their contracts) a proprietary period to do their analysis and publishing without competing scientists scooping them. If this means waiting until something is published (the measure of success for a scientist), then that is reality.
To expect new science results every day is very unrealistic regardless of who pays for it. That said, there is always ways to improve things. Contacting the outreach folk with positive suggestions is the best way to do so.
-Scott
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
Edited by jupiterzkool (07/09/08 06:51 PM)
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LadyAstronomer
Bookworm
Reged: 11/15/07
Posts: 2801
Loc: Library of Congress
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Well said, Scott!!!
I would also add that given the unforeseen issues the Phoenix team has had to deal with, I would imagine the data returned is under even greater scrutiny. Our society's apparent need for instant gratification on all levels generally does not translate well to the world of high-quality science/research.
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." -- Sir Isaac Newton
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davidpitre
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1363
Loc: Central Texas
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Thank you for your input Scott. You have been a wonderful resource to us here, and I always appreciate your insights.
Interesting about the proprietary rights to publishing granted the contractors. While I understand the reasoning, I feel such a high profile publicly funded project like this deserves a better system of keeping us more up to date.
I don't feel it is a "need for instant gratification" to expect press releases that are a little more in depth and fact filled.
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brentwood
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/05
Posts: 563
Loc: BC Canada
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I think that what Scott says is probably the reason for the lack of released information. If it is, fair enough, this is NOT reality TV.
However, I do have a feeling that there is a MBA in charge of the press releases and just like the rest of the corporate world, any bad news must be minimized. Reading through the various releases it's very difficult (not challenging!) to tell whether they have had a few minor setbacks or a major disaster.
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Big telescope.Small telescopes.
Ridiculous binocular collection
I've cut it twice and it's still too short.
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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I am glad that we do not have an reality TV here. Without my morning coffee, I can be quite grumpy. It would not be pretty. 
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 707
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Quote:
I am glad that we do not have an reality TV here. Without my morning coffee, I can be quite grumpy. It would not be pretty.
The real question though, is even though you're grumpy would the general public find it Entertaining!
I completely agree with your and Dave's comments about needing time to get the data "right." Even though my line of work isn't very public, it's still engineering and science based and when we have a "problem" or key "result" there are many folks who are quick to jump to conclusions. Often the first conclusion or impulse is completely wrong and it takes a good amount of time to tease out what's really going on.
I was a little disturbed to hear they were treating the TEGA oven's as if they only had one more shot, but again, this could be a contingency plan so they make sure they're prioritizing their experiments appropriately, but the way it came off made it sound like there's a major problem.
Of course, I haven't checked any updates in a few days, so they may have some other announcement that details their findings. Even problems or potential show stoppers can take a long time to tease out just the how critical and impacting the problem really is to the objectives.
I'll continue to be patient... I'm still hoping that somehow the unit will survive the winter and surprise us all...  Though I know technically this shouldn't be possible.
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Clear Skies,
Jim
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"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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janehoustonjones
super member
Reged: 10/21/07
Posts: 194
Loc: 34 N 118 W, 637.0 feet
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Quote:
Without my morning coffee, I can be quite grumpy. It would not be pretty.
I can vouch for that. Not pretty indeed. ;-) Scott needs his coffee. Seriously, there are some excellent forums that are quite focused on the many Mars Missions, and you can often find out some great info there. Planetary Society Blog and Unmanned Spaceflight (you can look up their urls, and join if you want) regularly talk to the mission folks and share their info with the public. But what Scott says is right on! Well said!
Now get out and have a look at Mars where all this exciting science is happening right now! Tomorrow will do too. And you can't miss Saturn - right next to Mars in our line of sight, tho 700 million miles farther away. Here is where and when: http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/scitech/display.cfm?ST_ID=2198
Jane
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Jane Houston Jones
Cassini Program Outreach Office
JPL's What's Up Podcast
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 3978
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Quote:
Quote:
That seems a little strange to have to write them, complaining that they're not telling us anything. As has been pointed out, we (the public) are footing the bill; why are they being so reticent in releasing any information to us?
(What are they hiding, hmmmm?)
I don't think they are hiding anything. True science takes time to get it right, which is far more important than getting it now. Most of the more prominent results from the MER rovers has come many months to a few years after the intial observations were made, so one just has to be patient and wait. I will be happy to wait until they get enough data to release for the public, but I want *good* data and not something quick and dirty (and possibly wrong). Clear skies to you.
Boy, this forum is a little short on sense of humor!
Of course it takes time to get it right. All you have to do is think back to the Mars rock containing life announcement; the Viking detection of life announcement; cold fusion, etc etc to know what happens with premature announcements.
I was suggesting that they had discovered an underground civilization of tiny Martian sphinxes, or the Encyclopedia Galactica, or something.
It was a joke, son, a joke! I'm pitchin', but you ain't catchin'!
I won't make that mistake again. 
I do, however, question the suggestion that we should have to write them and ask for information. An announcement that they're studying their results or calibrating their equipment would still be something.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6499
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Rick Woods posted:
Quote:
It was a joke, son, a joke! I'm pitchin', but you ain't catchin'!
It is frequently difficult to impossible to tell on-line whether a person is actually joking or not. Many somewhat heated discussions have blown up here both because someone actually was *not* joking at all in their posting or due to the fact that the reader didn't get any hint of a joke when one was supposedly intended. If you are joking, then you could have used one of the standard emoticons (Instant Graemlins available on your CN reply posting page as you write). It might also have been better to be a little longer and more obvious about the statement "what are they hiding", like saying, "What are they hiding? Hummm, maybe the huge stash of Martian Pistachio ice cream up at the poles)". Then, there is no doubt what you mean  . Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1187
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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Quote:
Boy, this forum is a little short on sense of humor!
I thought that I was being funny toward the end. 
-S
Edited by jupiterzkool (07/11/08 01:50 AM)
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Pess
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1646
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Well said, Scott!!!
I would also add that given the unforeseen issues the Phoenix team has had to deal with, I would imagine the data returned is under even greater scrutiny. Our society's apparent need for instant gratification on all levels generally does not translate well to the world of high-quality science/research.
Everyone here seems to forget the Viking landers.
How many years has it been and we still don't have definitive answers to the experimental results?
Pesse (Hey, maybe this stuff IS Rocket Science?) Mist
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
SBIG ST2000XM
CFW-10
Astrodon Series I LRGB
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled visual observer, bewildered astrophotographer, bemused tinkerer.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "It is the sign of a solid mind that cherished beliefs can be released in the face of incontrovertible contrary observations."
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 3978
Loc: Inner Solar System
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At least we knew what the results were to which there were no answers...
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 3978
Loc: Inner Solar System
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http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1808
They're still trying to get that soil sample off the scoop and into the oven! can you imagine how frustrating that must be? What is it, sol 62 or something, and they're still wrestling with that thing!
I wonder if there's someone at NASA saying: "I told you we needed to add a spoon to scrape it off with! But nooo, nobody listens to me!"
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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