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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 290
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
There is no way you can observe the same magnitude galaxies at the stellar limit of the scope, for example if your glimpsing a 17.5 magnitude star with a 36" scope, there is no way you can study galaxies at that magnitude with that aperture, it goes like that with all apertures, the galaxy limit is more like app. 1.5 magnitudes brighter then the stellar limit, and it depends on the surface brightness of the object, and the type of galaxy...
I'm not saying I see stars at 17.5 *and* galaxies at 17.5 as the limit. I'm saying the calculator says I should see 17.58 mag stars with all parameters on moderate settings at the power I have used, but I actually see 18.5 to 19 mag galaxies that aren't point-sources, like viewing Hickson 50 a few weeks ago as galaxies, and much fainter stars on nights that are not 'awesome', with optics that 'aren't cleaned yesterday', and with the apparently erroneously scripted code. So this data suggests either the calculator is really wrong, the magnitudes are really wrong, or I'm on the better end of the bell curve.
Since the calculator seems to be a good indicator for most people, though I suspect they just believe its numbers, and the recently found coding really only accounts for a couple-few tenths of a magnitude difference, it seems the latter may be the case for me personally due to the number of faint objects I've viewed beyond the mag limit the calculator says for me, my scope, and my sky, but I suggest people look for themselves. Very few people push their scopes to such limits trying to see stuff at the verge of visibility to know if that calculator is right for them. 
Steven
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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Houdini
sage
Reged: 07/13/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Europe
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It's indeed funny to see some very small (0.1 mag) corrections in the computation, and then to find at the end a huge correction for "experience" with a total range of nearly 1.5 magnitude which swamps all the rest.
This being said, with a 36" reflector under NELM 7 skies the prediction is 18.8 for a very experienced observer, which isn't too far away from what your seeing.
Your mag 19 with a 36" scope is quite consistent with Jake's report about going in the mid 15's with a 5" scope (see the third message in this thread).
Robert
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 motorized alt-az, 25" f/5 Dobson, 43" f/4 alt-az in construction
Mirror Edge Support Calculator
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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 290
Loc: Arizona
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Thanks Robert.
I suspect I was seeing to 20th mag in stars with 19th mag galaxies, and have hopes of reaching 21 when a perfect night comes along.
You and your 43" should see some amazing things...and fainter still....
Steven
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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lymorkiew45
sage
Reged: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Anaheim
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Magnitude 21 is for the huge professional scopes, such as the Lick Observatorie's 120" scope, there is know way you will be able to go that faint, that is rediculous, the ideal limiting magnitude for a 36" scope is around 18.5v, and thats stellar magnitude, thats not for deepsky, which is much brighter depending on the size, type, and surface brightness of the object(s) and that is for the darkest, most transparent, and steady skies, at very high magnification, if you want to go 3 mags fainter, then I'd say you'd better triple your aperture to a souped up 108" scope...clear skies...
-------------------- Control Yourself, let others do as they will, this does not mean you are weak, control your heart, obey the principles of life, this does not mean others are stronger. *Lung Ying Mor Kiew motto*
Starfinder 16 EQ, and dob
DS-10
Orion XT 12i
Z12
All the Lanthanum superwides!
Orion ultrablock filter
9mm Nagler type 6
15mm, 25mm, 35mm Ultrascopics
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
Orion Lazer Colimator
30" dob planned out in far future!
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6782
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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I think that the published total integrated magnitudes for galaxies in general may not be extremely consistent or accurate (probably no better than +/- 0.2 to 0.5 v-band magnitudes at best), and I suspect the accuracy gets worse towards the faint end of things. Just looking at M81 for example, the magnitude estimates range from a bright magnitude 6.8 to as faint as 7.9, although the "standard" right now appears to be converging on 6.9. Thus, a "17th magnitude" galaxy might actually be considerably brighter than a listed magnitude figure. I might believe some claims of sightings of faint stars with magnitude figures that are backed up by good photoelectric photometry data, but galaxies generally do not make very good reference objects for rating how faint a given telescope and observer can go. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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AlanK
super member
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 130
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Okay, how do you explain the fact that a number of people using 30" and over have detected some of the Hickson 50 galaxies which are not point sources?
-------------------- Clear skies!
12.5 inch f5.4 reflector
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
Auckland NZ
6,116 deep sky objects incl 4,268 ngcs
If it's up there, I'll look for it!
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6782
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Okay, how do you explain the fact that a number of people using 30" and over have detected some of the Hickson 50 galaxies which are not point sources?
Well, for starters, the Hickson 50 galaxies are fairly tiny (5.4 to 9.2 *arc seconds* across). This concentrates their light somewhat when the eye views them at moderate but not extreme power. Also, these objects may not be as faint as some sources may indicate. I find two magnitude entries in MEGASTAR for Hickson 50a (18.7) and Hickson 50b (18.9), but there is no indication as to whether these are v-band magnitudes or photographic magnitudes (I suspect they are either photographic or B-band (blue)). A few sources indicate that the brightest might be 18.4, but there isn't a research reference that I can find which confirms this number. The only firm data I have on them is from the Hickson Compact Galaxy Catalog itself (B-Tc magnitudes (blue, corrected) of 18.4 (Hickson 50a), 18.5 (Hickson 50b), 19.3 (50c), 19.2 (50d), and 19.7 (50e)). Since these magnitudes are blue-band, then the visual magnitude of these galaxies would probably be anywhere from 0.5 to as much as a full magnitude brighter than the listed figures, depending on the galaxy type. Some spirals tend to have slightly lower B-V figures (0.5 to 0.8) than some ellipticals (0.8 to 1.0), although this may not always be the case (M81, a spiral has a B-V of 0.95).
For example, Hickson 50a is an E0 galaxy, and E0's commonly have color indices (B-V) of around 0.9 or so, which would give Hickson 50a a visual magnitude of about 17.5. A 30 inch on a good night could probably reach 18.1 and perhaps somewhat fainter depending on the conditions and the quality of the observer's eye. Thus, it is not a stretch to say that at least two of the brighter galaxies in Hickson 50 could be seen in a 30 inch. However, if the figures for the galaxies were v-band, then the comparable stars in the field that are *also* visible would probably be anywhere from about as bright to slightly fainter than the galaxies of the group. Thus, if you are *really* seeing a small compact galaxy with a visual magnitude of 17, you are probably also able to see individual stars with magnitudes that are 17 to perhaps 17.6 or so. In any case, the figures for the exact integrated magnitudes of many galaxies may not be accurate enough to really nail how faint a telescope and observer are going. For that, you are better off using a faint photometric sequence of stars. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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i_sairanen
member
   
Reged: 10/17/04
Posts: 46
Loc: Imatra, Finland
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I have found that 15 mag in stars is easily reacheable with 4.3 inch newton in 7.2 mag skies. With 18 incher I have seen stars down to 17 mag, but this result is from *BLEEP* Finnish skies.
-------------------- Iiro Sairanen
http://personal.inet.fi/surf/deepsky
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10957
Loc: Los Angeles
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A side note to David's comments (and observers should always take magnitude figures for galaxies with a grain of salt) involves the calculation of surface brightness. Surface brightness on some small galaxies may be HIGHER than the total integrated magnitudes for those galaxies.
Here's how it works:
Our hypothetical galaxy has a total integrated magnitude of 16.0, and its size is 1' x 1'. The calculated surface brightness is 16.0 also. But let's say the galaxy is 1' x 0.5' The surface brightness is a factor of 2 (about .6 magnitudes, IIRC) brighter than the total integrated magnitude. So, though the galaxy's TIM (total integrated magnitude) is 16, it's easier to see than the TIM would suggest.
On my observing log, I have calculated SBs for all the galaxies based on the size of each galaxy. Many have SBs brighter than their TIMs.
And another factor to take into account is the brightness gradient. This is how the galaxy goes from its faint edge to the center. In many galaxies, the brightness is faint until the very center, where it spikes several magnitudes brighter than the rest of the galaxy. In such galaxies, though the TIM is noted as quite faint in lists, the core of the galaxy may be visible in very small scopes.
Guides such as the "Night Sky Observer's Guide" by Kepple and Sanner and "Observing Handbook and Catalogue of Deep-Sky Objects" by Luginbuhl and Skiff have entries for each object that explain the differences in appearance that the objects have in scopes of different sizes. Most objects are visible in quite small scopes, but, where galaxies are concerned, it is usually the cores that are visible in small scopes.
For example, I first observed NGC7331 in Pegasus with a 6" scope. My 8" showed 4 companions and some mottling in 7331. My 12.5" shows the galaxy easily 4X as large as in the 8", with most of the size being faint, diffuse, spiral arms. But NGC7331 is visible in my 50mm finder at 8X, so I guess we'd have to say that detectable is not the same as observed with details.
And for the more mathematically-minded, the Third Reference Catalogue of Galaxies by Vaucouleur (available for download on the web) contains, for about 3000 of its over 30000 galaxies, a figure (m'_e if I recall correctly) that describes the average surface brightness of only the brightest 50% of each galaxy. This is an interesting figure, and, with many exceptions unfortunately, may prove interesting to see if you are trying to predetermine whether a galaxy will be visible in your scope.
But, as David points out, the magnitude figures for many galaxies, especially the fainter ones, may be way off. I recommend going by the empirical rule: look first, then decide whether or not it's visible. This has served me in good stead through the years, and I have recorded some exceedingly "faint" DSOs that weren't really as faint as the figures in books suggested.
-------------------- Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2957
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Quote:
Thanks Robert.
I suspect I was seeing to 20th mag in stars with 19th mag galaxies, and have hopes of reaching 21 when a perfect night comes along.
You and your 43" should see some amazing things...and fainter still....
Steven
Yeah, if he gets out of Belgium.... A trip to Overgaard would be a nice idea with a 43"....would be a bit of a hassle though...  Boy, Steven, what an observing place over there....
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 290
Loc: Arizona
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Thank you Freddy, as with most things, everything up there is a work in progress....
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 290
Loc: Arizona
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I suspect galaxy mags aren't totally correct but even if they were 0.5 mag off the observation is still pretty good for what was an ok night, the mag calculator certainly isn't correct but it can't be 'right' for everyone and people should look for themselves, and, more importantly, I'm happy seeing what I'm seeing....
All I can do is add a data point of scope diameter and objects seen. I'm just glad I have good eyes and a scope to show me all that cool stuff up there.
Steven
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2582
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There's a relatively easy way to get at least a ballpark estimate on stellar and extended object limiting magnitudes. Just note the ID of the faintest star and/or galaxy observed and look up the photometry on the Internet. It's a good bet any star that's visually within reach of an amateur scope has been cataloged with astrometric and photometric data by somebody. The same is true for galaxies. While there's very good, very reliable V band photometry for the few thousand brightest galaxies, this isn't the case for many galaxies in the 13.0 magnitude and fainter range; especially once you go beyond true 14th magnitude galaxies. However, there is still photometry available for vast majority of galaxies within reach of even the largest amateur scopes and a rough V magnitude estimate can be made using J and R band photometry. But it all starts by properly ID'ing the star or galaxy that represents the faintest object observed. Estimates made without doing a proper object ID can't be confirmed and are unreliable.
Bill in Flag
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2957
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Yep, that's what i did a few weeks ago with 18". I used the stars around M57, a map posted here once on CN with some photometric values. M57 was not yet high up and as we are in the so called 'grey nights' the result was not overwhelming but still i went to m 15.3.
I just wonder if i am going to be able to see the central star in M57 on a good night....from my backyard...
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
Edited by F.Meiresonne (06/24/08 06:43 AM)
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6782
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Yep, that's what i did a few weeks ago with 18". I used the stars around M57, a map posted here once on CN with some photometric values. M57 was not yet high up and as we are in the so called 'grey nights' the result was not overwhelming but still i went to m 15.3. I just wonder if i am going to be able to see the central star in M57 on a good night....from my backyard...
Yes, there is hope that you can see the central star. You need to use high power (more than 350x) and just sit and wait for moments of very stable seeing. It tends to "pop" in and out as the seeing varies, so it is easy to miss. When the seeing is very stable, it isn't all that hard to see (especially in an 18 inch). Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2957
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Yesterday i reached m 15.7 from my backyard using again a photometric chart from the stars around M57. It was clear, very clear but not really as dark as it can not get dark in this time of year. Yet no central star...
BTW M27 was staggering, unbelievable
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6782
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Yesterday i reached m 15.7 from my backyard using again a photometric chart from the stars around M57. It was clear, very clear but not really as dark as it can not get dark in this time of year. Yet no central star...
BTW M27 was staggering, unbelievable
I had a rather staggering event a couple of nights ago myself. I had the NexStar 9.25 SCT out on the driveway (ZLM 5.6 or so) and had just put in my 5-8mm Speers Waler eyepiece in (297x) to look at the field around M57 when to my startled eyes the central star was immediately visible with averted vision, appearing steadily for a few precious seconds! It then (as usual) quickly vanished as if it was "shy" of being seen . I kept working the area around M57 at from 297x to 480x using that same eyepiece and my photometric sequence around the Ring to see how faint I was actually going. The magnitude 14.6 star just northwest of the ring was visible just about constantly, and the 15.3 star just west of it was seen about half the time. When seeing really settled down, the magnitude 15.7 star just off the west edge of M57 became visible perhaps 20% of the time, so I judged that to be the magnitude limit for the night. Every once in a while, my glance went back to the ring itself, and sure enough, the central star popped out at least two or three times, but again quickly vanished with the variations in seeing. The most surprising thing is that all this happened on a night that I had judged to be only "so-so" from a brief look up with my unaided eye. Just goes to show you what high power and a little patience will do. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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lymorkiew45
sage
Reged: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Anaheim
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Hmm very interesting...clear skies
-------------------- Control Yourself, let others do as they will, this does not mean you are weak, control your heart, obey the principles of life, this does not mean others are stronger. *Lung Ying Mor Kiew motto*
Starfinder 16 EQ, and dob
DS-10
Orion XT 12i
Z12
All the Lanthanum superwides!
Orion ultrablock filter
9mm Nagler type 6
15mm, 25mm, 35mm Ultrascopics
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
Orion Lazer Colimator
30" dob planned out in far future!
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2957
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Very interesting indeed, i should have persisted.... I use my 10 mm XW barlowed wich gives about 400X, it might work...
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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