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Mike I. Jones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1070
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: Gert]
      #2483505 - 06/25/08 11:08 PM

Good question. The main reason to avoid a cylindrical primary baffle is to minimize diffuse scattering visibility at graze angles along the tube's exterior surface. That's also why the secondary baffle is tapered down away from the primary mirror.

If the primary baffle were straight and cylindrical, stray light reflections from the primary that graze off the baffle heading toward the secondary would then be reflected from the secondary back to the focal plane, but not be anywhere near focus. This would create fogging and contrast reduction at the focal plane.

If the primary baffle is conical but just fits inside the innermost light zone on the primary, it would also create stray graze angle scattering toward the secondary and on to focus.

To avoid either of these grazing conditions, I set the rear diameter of the primary baffle 4% smaller than the light volume. The light from the innermost zones of the primary does not intersect the baffle until its forward end toward the sky. This does not totally avoid graze angle fogging, but it reduces it.

If the primary baffle were tapered so that the rear diameter is halfway or so between being a cylinder and the innermost used zone on the primary, sharp-edged baffle rings could be installed on the exterior of the primary baffle to trap any grazing light. This is the same principle as interior baffling. The primary baffle would thus have two sets of sharp-edged baffle rings, one set on the outside and one set on the inside as in a refractor.

However, these exterior baffle rings are directly exposed to stray skylight and sources, and can act as annular sources of stray light as seen from the secondary mirror. Their profile needs to be as low as possible to just trap grazing stray light down the baffle tubes without presenting too much projected area to the secondary.

These additional rings might also be a little too much trouble to make (except for Preston and Jason!). I chose to taper the primary baffle just inside the inner zone volume and leave the tube exterior clean. A ring baffle can always be added later if a problem becomes apparent. As I did for Preston, the primary baffle can also be partly conical, then transition to cylindrical with at least one exterior stray light baffle ring. Interior baffle plates are still installed inside the primary baffle.

Stray light control is maddening because it always seems like a countermeasure/counter-countermeasure exercise. Stray light can come in from any angle, in contrast to the actual relatively narrow FOV of the telescope. You can account for nearly all possible light paths with enough multibounce raytracing, but you reach a point where what you're doing is just not reducing enough fog light to be worth messing with.

All these partial tapering and exterior baffling techniques would be interesting and easy options to add to CassDesign and this ZEMAX baffle optimization macro code.

Mike

--------------------
56 mirrors, lenses, 16" f/6 Newt, 6" f/10 refractor, TOA-130S, Tinsley 5" f/15 Mak, 6" f/4 RFT, Coronado PST. Still to build: 24" f/10 Modified Dall-Kirkham, 10" f/26 Mak, 8" f/12 apo, spectrohelioscope, Herrig, Schupmann, and a new design you'll like.


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Gert
member


Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 19
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #2483759 - 06/26/08 01:51 AM

Hi Mike,

The grazing incidence reflection can be eliminated with proper rough texture blackening of the exposed surfaces. An extremely good combination that I recently used to cover the inside of my CCD imaging train is anti skid paint additive stirred into flat black optical paint.
http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/products_detail?prodGroupId=11&catName=Specialty&catId=10&from=search
That eliminates the unnecessary high effort of machining of conical baffles and allows simple use of plain pipe.

Try it on a test piece before continuing and you will be convinced!

Clear Skies,
Gert


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Mike I. Jones
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1070
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: Gert]
      #2483926 - 06/26/08 07:55 AM

Gert,
Thanks, I do want to test it. I did the store locator and found several area Home Depots that might have the Behr 970 additive. I've mixed both sawdust and sand into flat black paint before, and neither were as black as I wanted at extreme graze angles. I mixed up and used a LOT of 3M Nextel paint back in the 1980's for blackening the barrel and baffles on very large 17" aperture camera lenses. I don't think it's available anymore, but when applied properly, Nextel is still one of the blackest materials at graze angle I've ever seen. Perhaps this Behr 970 additive can equal or approximate Nextel. You say graze angle reflections are "eliminated" rather than just greatly reduced, so I'm anxious to test that for myself.

The only critical part of the primary baffle is the front end diameter and position. The taper angle from front to back is all about controlling multibounce graze angle reflection levels. I used cylindrical baffling before and didn't like what I saw at the exit pupil, and switched to conical baffling, which did reduce graze angle light. I'll endorse cylindrical baffling when I see how well your technique works.

And Preston and Jason are such good machinists I don't think conical or cylindrical matters all that much!

Mike


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 750
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #2484032 - 06/26/08 09:12 AM

Mike, What about Aeroglaze Z306 from Lord Chemical...

It's a flat black even darker than the Krylon Ultra Flat Black that we have used in the past.

Coating the ID of a tapered cone and it's like looking into a "Black Hole"

The Aeroglaze is a one part moisture cured polyurethane and sprays very nicely.

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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Mike I. Jones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1070
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2484915 - 06/26/08 05:18 PM

I've never used the Aeroglaze material. Now I have TWO paints to try! As I said over in your 20" thread, I think your "black hole" description will be very accurate for you and Jason. For the conical primary baffle, I'm not sure the interior baffle plates will even be necessary. But we will have to look at the brightness of any stray light coming from the outside of the cone.

Mike


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JohnH
sage


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 469
Loc: vancouver near the wilds of B...
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2485541 - 06/26/08 11:25 PM

If you want to make the baffles out of harder metals you can 'blacken' like aluminum, a jeweller might be able to make you one.

Some of them own a very precise type of arc-welder called a Tack III, which can weld very thin metal sheets edge to edge, even out of hard to weld stuff like titanium.


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: JohnH]
      #2489022 - 06/29/08 12:15 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

A little more progress over the last couple of days.. I finished off the machining of the mirror cell.. I just have to do some drilling on it and its done. Then I can do the mirror supports to sit in it..

I Also did the dovetail rail that it will go on to the paramount with.. I would still like to get the carcass done by next weekend to take to a local starparty with me..

Things like rails make me wonder why I have not bought a power feed yet.. Repetitive, I could do without..


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2489027 - 06/29/08 12:18 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

And I lined up some of the parts just so I could see

the rail with the rings on top is not for this..


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 750
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2489464 - 06/29/08 10:33 AM

Hi Jason, I see that it appears that you are going to fasten the back plate to the mid ring with a solid aluminum plate.

Have you calculated the differential expansion for your temperature min/max of the CF tubes and the aluminum plate?

We are going with a fixed rear mount on the back plate and a short linear rail on the mid ring to eleminate any stress or distortion on the OTA...

Just a thought.

Looking very nice.

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2489980 - 06/29/08 04:16 PM

Hi Preston, I am confused?

There will be an aluminium plate across the top and bottom of the back and midring. Not a combination of CF and alu so there shouldnt be different expansion rates over the same area?

The CF will only be from the mid to secondary ring. Please tell me more if there is still a problem as enginerring isn't something I was trained in.

I am hoping you thought I was having CF and alu in the same place though.

Thanks,
Jason


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 750
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2490818 - 06/29/08 11:10 PM

Jason, Sorry for the confusion...for some reason, I was thinking that you had CF tubes in the rear also

NO problem with your design

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2490838 - 06/29/08 11:20 PM

Ah yes, I feel better now

I figured you must have thought I had a combination of CF an alu on that part..

Jason


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2491034 - 06/30/08 01:34 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

I was looking for some low profile fans and found some 80mm fans at 15mm deep (.6")

Usually they are 1" but I found them at a computer overclocker/mod store online.

They also had a number of different laser cut fan gaurds. I thought one of those might look good so I ordered some.

It all arrived today so I attached the fans to have a look. I think I should admit that the old fashioned gaurd looks the best after all..


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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
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Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 11801
Loc: Rockford Illinois
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2492343 - 06/30/08 08:17 PM

I don't know... I kinda like the bio-Hazard covers...

--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"

Rockford, Il.

NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!

Coming soon:


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: NeoDinian]
      #2492415 - 06/30/08 09:01 PM

I reckon when/if it gets a black paint scheme the biohazard may look better

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GuyFleming
member


Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Newcastle, Australia
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2492651 - 06/30/08 11:37 PM

Hi Jason
Are you going to black anodise your aluminium? or just paint it?
I'm tempted by the 'natural' glass bead finish as per VSI on the non-light path aluminium components. You're still way ahead of me in your progress. I'm still in purgatory waiting for 6061 plate to arrive.
guy


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: GuyFleming]
      #2498227 - 07/03/08 08:30 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Happy Happy Joy Joy

I managed to get it bolted together to take away for the weekend to show my mates hehe..

I had to put it on the mount to see.. The FSQ always looked a bit domintated by the paramount, now there is some balance


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2498235 - 07/03/08 08:36 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

bah, I dont know (still) why some images show on thier sides...

heres another..


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2498237 - 07/03/08 08:37 PM

No time to talk about the work, I am running off for my weekend..

The tubes will be cut to length later, that will knock off ~10" maybe..

Jason


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Sky Captain
Scope Builder
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Reged: 11/07/04
Posts: 5661
Loc: Seattle Washington
Re: My thread for building a 12.5" RC. [Re: jasonharris]
      #2498246 - 07/03/08 08:45 PM

Very nice Jason!

--------------------
Equipment Overload!
Kerry.



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