Mr Q
sage
Reged: 02/25/08
Posts: 351
Loc: N Central New Mexico
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We all too often complain about poor seeing, needing a larger scope, needing better quality eyepieces, etc. But it's time to put observing conditions and equipment of today into some realistic perspective.
Here is some observing notes from a 1700s astronomer on the Messier objects he observed from dark skies in Europe using a 2 foot long refractor (about 50mm), which was of high quality for its day.
M1 "A nebula...does not contain any stars...its light is whitish and elongated like a candle flame"
M2 "Nebula without a star...the center is bright with a surrounding circular luminosity"
M3 " It does not contain any stars...its center is bright...light fades imperceptibly away from its center...circular"
M4 "Cluster of very faint stars...looks like a nebula"
M5 " Beautiful nebula...does not contain any stars...it is round"
M6 " A cluster of faint stars"
M7 " A larger cluster of faint stars...larger than M6"
M8 " A cluster of faint stars appearing as a nebula with an elongated shape"
M9 " Nebula without a star...circular and its light faint"
M10 " Nebula without a star...circular...faint with a good quality scope"
M11 " Cluster with a large number of faint stars...suffused with a faint luminosity... an 8th mag. star near its center"
M12 " This nebula does not contain any stars...circular...its light is faint"
M13 " Nebula without a star...circular and bright...the center brighter than the edges...close to two 8th mag. stars, one above it and one below it"
And so goes the list with similar observing details. The observers name? Why none other than Charles Messier himself!
So lets stop complaining about our seeing conditions and equipment and stop taking for granted what marvelous equipment we do have today, even with light polluted skies.
Will knowing Messier's observing conditions/equipment help you better appreciate yours? I know I have 
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What goes around, comes around, eventually.
Meade DS-10(10" newt)
10x50, 10x70 binos
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nytecam
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/20/05
Posts: 4814
Loc: London UK
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As Messier quotes most of HIS objects were unresolveable but what was 'impossible' at discovery becomes 'easy' to those that follow  But it isn't only aperture fever but location posing too - signing off...
Loc: Sodium soaked SW London with 7m neighbours [official] 
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Nytecam 51N 0.1W
Meade 30cm LX200+ETX-70+DS-2090+C8+Ha+CaK PSTs SBIG SGS+homebuilt spectrographs
Starlight SXVF_M9/Lodestar/Canon 300D DSLR/Fuji E550
My observatory build-ETX-70 imaging-spectro page
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Josh U
member
Reged: 07/10/07
Posts: 41
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Good point, Mr. Q!
I saw a quote once. "Astronomy is the study of telescopes."
I'll sometimes find myself looking at ancient photons from a breathtaking stellar landscape, and say to myself "Gee, this eyepiece is a piece of junk - maybe I should get an Ethos, and..."
A very good reminder you posted, indeed! Too bad we couldn't go back in a time machine with a big dob and, like an astro-terminator, shatter Messier's mind. "Hasta La Vista - Dust lanes in NGC 4565!"
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"How you do anything is how you do everything."
Zhumell 10" dob
80mm Refractor
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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For Messier, it really was a question of optical quality rather than aperture. He actually used some decently sized telescopes!
In Messier's Nebulae and Star Clusters, a wonderful observing book, Kenneth Glynn Jones lists the telescopes Messier used (p. 406) and describes them (p. 402). Interesting set of scopes… Early on, Messier used a 7 1/2 inch speculum reflector (f/4.3), later a 3 1/2 inch refractor (f/12). His scopes also included a 6-inch f/5 Gregorian reflector (owned by M. Lemonnier) (an observing buddy?)!
But these scopes obviously were pretty bad ones--they didn't include any Obsessions or Starmasters! As you point out, many of the objects (open clusters and globulars) that we can resolve today, even with small telescopes, Messier described as "nebula without star". It really does make one appreciate what one has and the tremendous views we have!
One cure to aperture fever is to spend a few weeks observing with a smaller scope and then return to one's regular scope-- the difference is impressive!
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Mr Q
sage
Reged: 02/25/08
Posts: 351
Loc: N Central New Mexico
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Paul - The only info on Messier's scope(s) was what I included in the post. I would love to see pictures of the scopes he used. Didn't know he used that large of apertures but with the quality of the lenses, it's a wonder he saw anything at all. On a PBS program, Gallileo's (spelling??)small refractor was shown and it really looked crude and small.
I have seen drawings of Messier and his friends at observatories but always wondered what his own scope(s) looked like. Perhaps someone out there can post a pic or two?
And I too am guilty of complaining about trivial problems when observing with my 10" newt but realizing what was available back in the 1600-1700s makes me appreciate what I have greatly. Mr Q
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What goes around, comes around, eventually.
Meade DS-10(10" newt)
10x50, 10x70 binos
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alanon
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 1248
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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I purchased a cheap ($99) replica of Galileo's telescope mainly as an educational tool for outreach use, but I get a hoot out of using it myself sometimes.
It serves as a reminder of just how amazing these people of antiquity were to do the things they did with the equipment that they had. Oddly enough, the 4 Galian moons of Jupiter are visible in my cheapo replica. It is a hoot!
I would love to find such a replica for Messier's eqoipment as well. 
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Alanon the Wizard
(Dan)
12.5" Obsession #1531
WO ZenithStarII 80mm ED
Coronado PST Ha
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6285
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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The telescopes that Messier employed are discussed here.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Illinois
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 557
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Today good small telescope like Tele Vue is far better than old days telescopes!
Get as large telescope as you can afford, space and use it often! Set up 6", 10" and 16" and all view on M13 at the same time.....you can see all M13 is no problem but 16" is better for sharp details and million pinpoint stars!
Take care of your telescope, keep mirror or len stay clean and good brand name of eyepiece......dark sky.....you can see lot more deep sky objects...all M, and throsands of NGC!
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Astronomer since 1975!
Meade 16" Lightbridge Dobsonian
Orion 10" SkyQuest Classic Dobsonian
Tele Vue Eyepieces
Orion Expanse Wide-Field 6mm eyepiece
4.5" F5 Reflector since 1982!
Orion Narrowband and SkyGlow filters
Member of IDA, let's fight light pollution!
Old Edmund 6"F8...donated to cousins
Super Polaris C8...donated to Byron Observatory in Illinois
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Thomas_N
member
Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
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Need a larger Scope? For me at least it worked the other way round. I found out that I better liked to watch large fields like 8 or more degrees with low magnification. That's why I nowadays mostly observe through binoculars. Sometimes I'm itching to "go into detail" with my 10" Dob, but I find it so much more pleasing to view a globular cluster floating in sky among clouds of stars...
Most of Messiers objects can be viewed with a 10x50 binocular. Numbers 46 to 100+ can be pretty hard (Messier used a larger telescope then), but most of them "work" with binoculars too.
Tom
P.S. That's my first post in the CN forum. Hope, there are some "binoculists" here, too.
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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2516
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Messier also lacked the Cloudy Nights "Deep Dky Observing", "Refractors" and "Eyepieces" forums to post reports of his observations and get tons of helpful clues about how to upgrade his equipment.
Most of us would have advised him to junk that department store refractor and get a nice six-inch reflector, and get a few decent eyepieces while he's at it. There's a few contrarians here who would have said: "Charles, it's amazing what you can see in any instrument, no matter what it is" - don't badmouth department store scopes etc. We would have also oohed and ahhed when he told us matter-of-factly how dark his skies were outside Paris.
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Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Things listed in order of importance for viewing DSOs:
1. dark skies
2. dark skies
3. dark skies
4. dark skies
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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RAKing
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 819
Loc: Clouds-ville, Virginia
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Quote:
We would have also oohed and ahhed when he told us matter-of-factly how dark his skies were outside Paris.
His personal observatory in the Hotel Cluny was just a couple blocks south of the Seine. It's almost directly opposite the Notre Dame Cathedral. 
I'm glad M. Messier did his thing before the city's nickname, "The City of Light", changed from a reference to its educational prowess to its light pollution. I sure couldn't see much when I was there. 
Ron
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Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Orion XT10i / Moonlite CR2 -- The New "Time Machine"
"Hi Def" TV-102
C925-CF SCT
Ethos and Naglers
GM-8 GEM / A-P Portable Pier
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Thomas_N
member
Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
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Quote:
1. dark skies
2. dark skies
3. dark skies
4. dark skies
I would like to add: 5. dark skies. It's simply amazing how much difference that makes. Just a little bit darker skies and suddenly whole new structures and details shine through, dim nebulas and clusters appear bright and everything is so much more fun. Or, think about the milky way...
So, buying dark skies ist the proper way to go.
Thomas
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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FirstSight, he did junk that department store refractor! Indeed, if Jones has his info right, he even used 6-7" reflectors...
"Early on, Messier used a 7 1/2 inch speculum reflector (f/4.3), later a 3 1/2 inch refractor (f/12). His scopes also included a 6-inch f/5 Gregorian reflector (owned by M. Lemonnier) (an observing buddy?)!"
What he should have done was sent them out for recoating!
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Patricko
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 742
Loc: around the corner
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Hi Paul, take another look at the data, the best reflector he had was equal to a 3.5" refractor. I've seen NGC 404 with a 60mm from Wal-Mart from my backyard and am currently rebuilding a old 60mm f/12.5 Selsi for the purpose of hunting down the Herschel 400 from my average backyard observing site. It's the observer's skill and determination that count.
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Clear skies,
Patrick
 "Life is too short, go collect some photons!" - Me, myself, and I
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
1. dark skies
2. dark skies
3. dark skies
4. dark skies
I would like to add: 5. dark skies. It's simply amazing how much difference that makes. Just a little bit darker skies and suddenly whole new structures and details shine through, dim nebulas and clusters appear bright and everything is so much more fun. Or, think about the milky way...
So, buying dark skies ist the proper way to go.
Thomas
I did....when I retired I bought in a rural area in northeastern California. Dark skies were at the top of the list of factors considered.
My backyard skies are typically SQM 21.5 (6.5 mag) That's when I got enthusiastic about buying more astronomy toys.
Seriously, if I had to observe under the light pollution that many on CN talk about, I just wouldn't bother; it's just too frustrating.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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GlennLeDrew
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I've long said that I'd prefer just my good ol' Mk I eyeballs in a dark sky to using a light bucket under a city sky. That's how important sky quality is to me.
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Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Mr Q
sage
Reged: 02/25/08
Posts: 351
Loc: N Central New Mexico
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Dave - Thanks for the messier info. I never knew such large apertures were available back then but with the poor grade optics and "metal" mirrors, it's a wonder he saw much even in his dark skies.
Tom - I use 10x50s and 10x70s for the same reasons. They are excellent for very large, low surface brightness objects like the N.A.Nebula. And the views of the Milky Way through them in dark skies is breath-taking indeed. Some of my best nights of seeing conditions are done solely with binos.
Mr Q
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What goes around, comes around, eventually.
Meade DS-10(10" newt)
10x50, 10x70 binos
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