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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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It's always been tough to tell other people how dark or light-polluted your favorite observing site is. Descriptions like "pretty dark" or "very bright" convey nothing at all. Skies that appear dark to a city dweller may seem horribly light-polluted to someone from Wyoming.
Traditionally, people have described their skies in terms of naked-eye limiting stellar magnitude (NELM), which conveys something -- but still not much. NELM estimates of identical skies vary by at least one full magnitude among experienced observers, and by much more if novices are included.
To my mind, the best subjective measure of sky brightness is the Bortle Scale. This incorporates NELM and several other subjective indicators such as the visibility of the zodiacal light, the Milky Way, and certain key deep-sky objects. Bortle ratings still vary a lot depending on the individual, but less so than NELM estimates.
However, I and many other experienced observers think that the Bortle Scale has some serious internal inconsistencies. Truth be told, it's very easy to pick holes in the Bortle Scale, but a lot harder to fix them. Only someone with intimate knowledge of all 9 brightness levels is really qualified to judge the system as a whole. And there may be nobody on Earth -- certainly not me and probably not Bortle -- who can claim such knowledge. This makes me wonder if a community like Cloudy Nights can accomplish what no individual can.
So I will describe the four observing sites where I've done the lion's share of my observing in as much detail as possible. And I encourage other people to do so two.
I've incorportated two objective measures which I find quite valuable. First, the color zone assigned to the site in the World Atlas of Light Pollution. If you live in North America, you can find your zone using Jonathan Tomshine's Dark Sky Finder. One of the things that I'd like to find out by this exercise is how reliable and/or meaningful these zones are.
Second, readings taken by Unihedron's Sky Quality Meter (SQM) provide an objective measurement of skyglow at the zenith. But this needs some caution; it's quite easy to get invalid readings with this instrument. Dark obstructions (e.g. trees) more than 30 degrees above the horizon make the readings darker than they should be, and ambient lights more than 10 degrees above the horizon (including the Moon) can make the SQM go completely haywire. In some places, it's extremely hard to find sites that don't have obstructions and/or lights. The new SQM-L has a built-in lens giving it a much narrower field of view, and making it much less prone to these problems.
Also, artificial skyglow varies depending on atmospheric conditions, and it falls steadily over the course of a night as lights are turned off and car headlights thin out. And in areas with deciduous trees and/or snow, there's a huge seasonal variation. Early evening after a fresh snow is more than 1 magnitude brighter than 3 a.m. in the summer. To normalize for all of this, I propose that SQM measurements be taken on Moonless nights with good transparency around 11 p.m., and only when the trees are fully leafed out. Just about all stargazers are up and about when conditions are like that.
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My closest site is Danehy Park, in Cambridge MA, deep inside the white zone, SQM 17.9. It's about 4.5 miles from the center of Boston, a city of 700,000 in the center of a metro area of some 5 million. I can typically see stars to mag 4.7 here. M31 and the Double Cluster are just barely visible naked-eye when they're well placed in the sky, but I've never seen the Milky Way. This is a pretty good match for Bortle Class 8 aside from Bortle's ridiculous statement about only the brightest Messier objects being detectable. In fact, I've seen almost all of the Messier objects here with my 7-inch scope, and most of them with my 70-mm scope.
My second closest site is Robbins Farm, in Arlington, MA, also deep inside the white zone, SQM 18.4, 7 miles from the center of Boston. I can typically see stars around 5.1 here. I can just see the Cygnus Star Cloud when it's directly overhead, but for all practical purposes, the Milky Way is invisible. Robbins Farm is a fairly good match to Bortle Class 7 -- one of the few really plausible fits that I've found between Bortle's descriptions and my own experience.
Although Robbins Farm is quite a bit darker than Danehy, I think they clearly belong in the same category, with Robbins Farm at the dark end of the category. Both naked-eye and telescopic views are qualitatively quite similar at both sites, though everything is a smidge or two easier at Robbins Farm. But I'd say that Robbins Farm is near the dark edge of its category. As soon as sites gets significantly darker, the Milky Way becomes visible, deep-sky observing really starts to open up, and the whole experience becomes qualitatively different.
My club (ATMOB) has an observing field in Westford, MA, on the red/orange border, SQM 20.0. This is 30 miles from the center of Boston, still well inside the Consolidated Metropolitan Area defined by the Census Bureau. There are several distinct light domes here, with Boston to the ESE by far the biggest. S is mediocre, NW is relatively good. I can make stars out to mag 5.8 or thereabouts. The summer Milky Way is obvious when it's reasonably high in the sky, but severely washed out and shows little detail. M31 and the Double Cluster are really obvious naked-eye, and many fainter DSOs are visible with some effort, including M34, M35, and maybe M13. Clouds everywhere are much brighter than the background sky. If forced to assign a Bortle Class, I'd call this 6 or possibly 5, though neither is a very good fit.
My darkest regular observing site is my country home in New Lebanon, NY, deep in the yellow zone, SQM 21.1. The brightest light domes are Albany (900,000 people 20 miles WNW) and Pittsfield/Lenox/Lee (150,000 people 10 miles E and NE). The New York City metro area, 20 million people 120 miles distant casts a broad low glow along the southern horizon. I can see most 6.5-mag stars, and occasionally fainter ones. The Milky Way is immediately obvious, and shows in considerable detail. However, the extension into Ophiuchus is barely visible and seeing the Pipe Nebula naked-eye is out of the question. Clouds are usually brighter than the background, but not always. The zodiacal light is visible, but only when it's not tangled up with the light domes of Albany or Pittsfield, which happen to be in the worst possible spots for this particular purpose. I can see M33 with averted vision when it's reasonably well placed in the sky. If forced to assign a Bortle Class, I would call this 4, though it's well ahead of that by some measures and well behind by others.
I would say that ATMOB and my country home are clearly in different categories. Bright galaxy features, like M51's spiral arms, are visible in big telescopes at ATMOB, but M31's dust lanes are probably out of the question. At my country home, I more or less expect to see everything described by dark-sky writers such as Steve O'Meara, though I'm occasionally disappointed. M31's dust lanes are easy, Pickering's Wedge in the Veil is visible with an O-III filter, and the California Nebula is easy in a small scope with an H-Beta filter.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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csa/montana
Astro Ambassador
   
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 28286
Loc: montana
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Tony, thanks for such a great post explaining how to gauge the sky's darkness.
This should be of great help for members to help judge their own skies.
-------------------- Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
7mm Pentax XL, 10mm Pentax XW
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
22mm Pan, 35mm Pan
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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HfxObserver
professor emeritus
 
Reged: 11/12/04
Posts: 619
Loc: Waterloo ON, Canada
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Tony-
That was a very interesting read and mimics much of my own experience. Altitude and proximity to Oceanic effects are other qualitys which create difficulty for the Bortle scale.
I moved from Canada's east coast to SW Ontario a couple years ago and dreaded the light pollution. Although there are more lights and larger domes the best of the best nights seem to push the sky ahead of what occurs on the coast.
On the best nights from my 1200ft site well into Bortle 5 here I can see M31 as a larger extended object when placed in the darkest zone of sky. While the best nights back east still have it as a smudge halo from a 250ft Bortle 4 as the atmospheric haze ever present at the ocean always smudges it out no matter how dark it is.
-Chris
-------------------- Chris
7X50 Vixen,22X100 Antares
80mm William Optics Megrez II ED
Santel MK6
Borg 125SD f6 (Pentax/Oasis version)
Tak-Lapides
Pentax XW's 40,20,14,10,3.5 3.8XP, Speers 5-8, 30mm Widescan III
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csa/montana
Astro Ambassador
   
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 28286
Loc: montana
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Quote:
Tony, thanks for such a great post explaining how to gauge the sky's darkness.
This should be of great help for members to help judge their own skies.
I have "stickied" this thread, as it contains excellent information for members.
-------------------- Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
7mm Pentax XL, 10mm Pentax XW
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
22mm Pan, 35mm Pan
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Tony, thanks for such a great post explaining how to gauge the sky's darkness.
Thanks, Carol. But I would have written a somewhat different post if my primary intention had been explaining how to gauge your sky. What I'm really trying to do is gather more empirical data about the correlation between:
1. Distance to nearest major light source. 2. Color zone in Light Pollution Atlas. 3. Sky-Quality Meter reading. 4. Visibility of Milky Way. 5. Naked-eye visibility of various DSOs. 6. Are clouds bright or dark? 7. Other indicators used in Bortle scale.
So how about the two of you who responded? How do your skies rate on those measures?
I'm realizing even as I write this that I have one huge advantage over most stargazers: I don't have a backyard. That has forced me to gain experience with a wide variety of different sites. So I have perspective that most people lack. If you only know the Milky Way in your own backyard, how would you know if your view is great or terrible?
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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s58y
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 4842
Loc: Eastern NY
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"Summer" place near Halcottsville, NY (in Catskills, elevation = 2050 ft):
1. Distance to nearest major light source.
(Straight-line distances in nautical miles)
Nearby (under 10 NMi):
1. - Halcottsville (13 streetlights)
2. - Denver (few streetlights)
2.5 - Kelly Corners (few streetlights)
3. - New Kingston (few streetlights)
4. - Roxbury (about 65 streetlights -- both sides of main street)
4.5 - Arkville (many streetlights)
5. - Margaretville (many streetlights)
6. - Fleischmanns (many streetlights)
7. - Highmount (some streetlights)
8. - Andes (quite a few streetlights)
8. - Bovina center (some streetlights)
8.5 - Pine Hill (quite a few streetlights)
9. - Hobart (some streetlights)
9.5 - Grand Gorge (quite a few streetlights)
9.5 - Prattsville (quite a few streetlights)
Bigger nearby cities:
10.5 - Stamford
14. - Delhi
24. - Walton
24. - Oneonta
26. - Liberty
27. - Cobbleskill (etc.)
34. - Monticello
37. - Kingston
45. - Albany (etc.)
85. - New York City (etc.)
2. Color zone in Light Pollution Atlas.
Blue, near border with green (back in 1998? anyway)
3. Sky-Quality Meter reading.
On a good night (with leaves) 21.6 or so. Can be as bad as 21.25 with fresh snow, and if it's murky. On one recent occasion, I couldn't get the reading to go below 21.71 (numerically) even with repeated attempts.
4. Visibility of Milky Way.
Visible (obvious when overhead) Dark patches are visible seemingly out in front of the brighter background. Usually, on good nights, my eyes don't have a chance to get fully dark-adapterd, since I need to tend to the images being captured at the laptop.
5. Naked-eye visibility of various DSOs.
I don't go looking for these (I mainly do imaging), but M45, M31 are certainly visible, maybe others.
6. Are clouds bright or dark?
Low clouds down to the south and southeast are bright (Margaretville/Arkville or Kingston/Shokan/Boiceville area?) Clouds to the west or overhead are not visible, so they can sneak up on you (unless there's a moon out). You have to look for missing stars to detect clouds.
7. Other indicators used in Bortle scale.
Don't do much visual observing. The Milky Way does not cast shadows. The whole sky glows. The glow is least near the zenith. There are light domes all around (except west). If you put your hand a few inches above something, it's darker underneath, so the whole sky casts fuzzy shadows.
-------------------- Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, SV66 guidescope
AP900, G-11, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
"Summer" place near Halcottsville, NY (in Catskills, elevation = 2050 ft)
Thanks for your report. Judging by your description of clouds, it sounds as though your major light pollution is to the south and southeast -- comprised, no doubt, of Kingston, New Paltz, Poughkeepsie, and the New York metro area just beyond.
The location on the green/blue border and your SQM readings match one of my own favorite sites -- Kancamagus Pass in New Hampshire -- which I may describe in more detail some day.
One problem with the Bortle Scale that your report highlights is the description of light domes. To some extent, light domes become more obvious, not less so, as the sky gets darker. At many urban locations, there is no sensation of light domes -- the whole sky is one big light dome. Conversely, at dark sites in Arizona, the light dome of Phoenix is always obvious, even from distances well beyond 100 miles.
Having low horizons also makes a huge difference to the perception of light domes and of the zodiacal light.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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a-l-e-x
sage
Reged: 12/25/07
Posts: 488
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Thanks for this very informative thread, Tony. I really dont see any light domes here-- but then again, I am in the light pollution capital of the world, the NYC metro area. My Bortle scale number is 8/9... and the only Messier objects Ive seen with my naked eyes at all are the Pleaides and the Orion Nebula. Never saw M31 or the Milky Way visually, no matter how late I was up. So, I guess the Bortle scale is pretty accurate for me; on the best of nights I suppose I can barely glimpse 4th mag stars.
I was wondering about the top end of the scale, however. Is it true that from the very darkest locations in the world, you can actually glimpse mag 8 stars visually? Whats the dimmest mag you can glimpse from the darkest sites in the world? Mag 8.5 or even 9 perhaps?
Also, when they say that an 8" sct can "see" down to 14th mag, what kind of visual limiting mag are they talking about? Because if its magnitude 6 skies, I think an 8" sct would see down to mag 16 under the darkest skies, no? Conversely, in extreme light pollution, perhaps only mag 11 or 12?
-------------------- **************************************************
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We love our precious Harmony, our sweetest Destiny and our darling Sonya Marie !!!
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Is it true that from the very darkest locations in the world, you can actually glimpse mag 8 stars visually?
Who, me? No way! But I don't doubt that John Bortle and Steve O'Meara can. And Barbara Wilson has described a night where she could see every star in Sky Atlas 2000.0.
As for me, my limiting naked-eye stellar magnitude seems to top out long before the sky gets anywhere close to pristine. I can see 6.5-mag stars fairly easily in the yellow zone, in places where the Milky Way is quite obviously washed out even overhead. But I've never been anywhere where I could see every 7.0-mag star that I've looked for. That's one of the reasons why NELM is not an especially useful indicator for me.
Quote:
Also, when they say that an 8" sct can "see" down to 14th mag, what kind of visual limiting mag are they talking about?
I wouldn't take statements like this too seriously. Yes, under dark skies with excellent seeing, keen-eyed observers can undoubtedly see fainter than mag 15.0 in an 8-inch scope. And obviously, if the sky is both bright and severely hazy, you might have trouble seeing first-magnitude stars through the same instrument.
But in general, light pollution has less effect on limiting telescopic magnitude than limiting naked-eye magnitude. That's because magnification is your first weapon against light pollution. Human eyes operate far below the optimal magnification for a 7-mm aperture.
For what it's worth, I've never been anywhere where I couldn't see 4.0-mag stars on a night of good transparency, as long as there weren't lights shining directly in my face. That includes my mother's apartment in upper Manhattan and the 87th floor of the Empire State Building. I've never tried from serious bright spots like (say) Las Vegas or Tokyo.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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a-l-e-x
sage
Reged: 12/25/07
Posts: 488
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Thanks for "shedding some light" on this issue. (A case where shedding some light actually helps!) So, light pollution can be combated effectively with additional magnification, which will help illuminate dimmer stars. I can see down to 4th magnitude around here (long island) but that is about it. If youre in the city right now, you know we're in the middle of an early heatwave. I havent tried observing yet during this timespan; I wonder what kind of conditions I'll have to deal with if I try tonight. Its going to be in the 75-80 degree range all night with high humidity and haze. Still 97 degrees at LGA after a high of 99. Probably wont go under 80 there tonight. Good grief!
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We love our precious Harmony, our sweetest Destiny and our darling Sonya Marie !!!
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MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Redlands, CA
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Hi, Tony
Here are some light pollution observations from Cottonwood Springs Campground - Joshua Tree National Park in Southern California. There are darker sites but this is a good combination of paved roads, facilities, safety, water, and medium driving distance from my home in Redlands. There are other astronomers that frequent the area, and maybe they can chime in too. This may be a difficult place to characterize because of one dominant light dome to the west and very good conditions to the east.
1. DISTANCE TO METRO AREAS.
To the west is about 20 miles of uninhabited areas (virtually no lights) between the camground and the edge of the Palm Springs/Indio (400,000 - Coachella Valley). But beyond this is the LA metro area with 16 million people. The west has the major light dome of the site. To the east, practically no civilization. Blythe (20,000 people) is 70 miles and Phoenix is 200 miles. Population is very sparse to the northeast and southeast. To the south is El Centro/Mexicali about 80 miles (800,000+ people mostly Mexicali). To the northwest, the smaller town of 29 Palms, about 30 miles. Slight dome bleeds into the west dome.
Lightdomes: West is severe, northwest dome bleeds into west dome. South is observable but not much of a nuisance. Southeast to north, no domes.
Elevation: 3000 ft. Humidity: Dry! Dust/haze/smog: Some days are noticeable from LA area.
2. COLOR ZONE IN LIGHT POLLUTION ATLAS
Solidly Blue, Bortle Scale 3 according to Clear Sky Clock. To the east is Bortle 2. Palm springs/Indio is Red Zone at worst.
3. No SQM owned.
4. VISIBILITY OF MILKY WAY. When in the eastern part of the sky, excellent. Arm into Ophiucus obvious, Pipe Nebula and the Horse plainly visible, although a bit washed out compared to some other sites. When in the western sky, I don't bother looking at it.
5. VISIBILITY OF NAKED EYE DSO'S. This is where I am weaker than most people. Have never seen M33 directly anywhere although I try every time it's viewable. Suspected M33 on the best night here. Stars only down to 6.5 with averted vision, 6.0 with little effort. M13 visible (east and overhead). M31 is easy. I have been practicing more with NELM lately, so the values may go up a little.
I am 53 years old with near sightedness. Vision when younger was 20/12 to 20/15. Corrected to 20/15 now. Although seems like the accuracy of correction will vary from year to year. Last set of eyepieces seem better than previous years. Some astigmatism 0.5 diopters both eyes.
6. CLOUDS BRIGHT OR DARK? To the west, clouds are bright close to the dome. Honestly have not seen any clouds to the east! (I have seen dark clouds at better sites, an eerie experience much like the little ghouls in the movie "Ghost".) Maybe just bright enough here to not see the dark clouds?
7. OTHER INDICATIONS
One exceptional night in winter saw the zodiacal light extend to overhead. Most of the time the west light dome washes it out. Light dome to the west extends more than 10-15 degrees.
This area I don't think is Bortle 2 although to the east it is approaching.
The area has light colored sandy soil and no trees. Daytime the sunlight is intense. Ordinary sunglasses probably not enough to avoid damaging your night vision.
Have not tried the overcorrected lenses for night sharpness.
Thanks,
Mike Ratcliff
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 dob
Tele Vue Plossls 32,25,20,15,11
13 Nagler T6
10.5 Pentax XL
Brandon 32, 16
12.5 UO ortho, 9 Circle T ortho
2x TV Barlow
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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2514
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Some sites, like Mike's description of Joshua Tree above, have such radically different darkness conditions in different quadrants that they're difficult to categorize. One spot I regularly use, Sunset Beach NC (a narrow inhabited barrier island on the NC/SC border) is a prime example of extreme sharp differences. It's shoreline faces just slightly east of due south, and is blessed toward its west end by a several-hundred foot wide swath of dunes and low scrub forest between the front row of houses and the beach, with unlit wooden boardwalks every block for public beach access from the street out to the strand - pefect to set up a grab n'go refractor on the boardwalk, protected from the ocean by the final (relatively high) line of dunes before the tidal strand.
TO THE WEST: Unfortunately, in a due west to northwest direction, the "redneck riviera" metropolis of Myrtle Beach throws up a hopelessly washed out dome of light up to forty-five degrees up into the sky. Unless it's a planet in this part of the sky, fuggetaboutit.
TO THE SOUTH: Wow, what a difference! There's NOTHING between you and St, Thomas, Virgin Islands nearly a thousand miles south-southeast over open ocean, and it's very dark, with the Milky Way being brightly visible from Sagittarius up through Cygnus. Many nights when wind is light, the ocean tends to create very stable seeing conditions to boot. Even thirty-five degrees rotation southward from the due west Myrtle Beach light-dome makes a vast difference in the observability of DSOs. These favorable conditions extend all the way to about twenty degrees south of due east...
TO THE EAST AND NORTH: when smaller local domes from the fishing pier and neighboring Ocean Isle begin to progressively intrude, extending nearly thirty degrees upward due east, but don't wash out the sky to nearly the extent that Myrtle Beach does to the west. To the northeast, the town of Shallotte throws up a dome nearly forty-five degrees in extent, and to the north, retirement and golf course developments on the mainland make the sky to the north below about 45 degrees more like typical suburban conditions anywhere.
OVERHEAD: However, straight overhead and down to about 45 degrees in any direction, the sky is dark enough to see somewhere between mag 5 and mag 6 stars easily, depending on moisture content and transparency. The Milky Way is easily visible, even from my the roof deck of my house back a quarter-mile from the ocean (where there are streetlights along the streets), though it is somewhat more washed-out viewing it from here than from out on the strand.
This is by no means a true "dark site" - just one that's good enough to still be quite enjoyable, especially out toward the ocean. But how in the world could you accurately pin down what this site is on the Bortle scale? If you were interested in objects in the Ophicus/Sagittarius/Scorpius region - fantastic. Also very good for the Virgo region of galaxies, cause they pass high overhead to the south. Also good even for galaxies in Ursa Major/Coma V. etc., when positioned high enough overhead to be out of the light domes. But terrible when that region rotates downward and westward. Downright disappointing for astronomy to the northeast and directly west below 45 degrees.
-------------------- Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Have never seen M33 directly anywhere ...
I think this is one of the places where Bortle's criteria need fixing. I'm quite sure I can't see M33 with direct vision, and I'm pretty sure that there are very, very few people who can. And I don't think light pollution is the obstacle; the problem is simply this object's inherent faintness.
But I wouldn't say that M33 is just "suspected" for me either. Even under fairly bright skies, I can sorta vaguely see something, and every time I sight on it through my Telrad, lo and behold, there's M33 sitting in the center of my eyepiece. I would think it might be an illusion composed of a bunch of faintish stars, but there are no stars in that vicinity which could produce such an illusion.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Some sites, like Mike's description of Joshua Tree above, have such radically different darkness conditions in different quadrants that they're difficult to categorize.
Indeed they do. In fact, that's pretty much the norm in the American West, where large metropolitan areas often end abruptly at federally owned wildnerness land.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6148
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Tony,
I'm rather surprised to hear that you can see M34 and M35 naked-eye only 30 miles from Boston.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
   
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1227
Loc: AR
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On a good night at my observatory site, I suspect, but cannot verify due to tree line 10 degrees up in west-NW, small light domes to the NW from Fayetteville and Springdale (40 miles) and a small very faint dome on the SW horizion from Ft. Smith (~55 miles). There are absolutely no domes in the south, east, or north, maybe a very small one on the SE horizin from the small town of Clarksville (~25 miles?). Small clouds look dark gray if present. The extension of the milky way into Oph is extremly obvious. Venus is a LP nuisance when in the sky. I have seen M33 naked eye a few times with averted vision. M51 is easy in a 50mm finder, and bright and spectacular in a 10" or better scope. The Helix Nebula is easily visible in small binoculars. Faint red lights are a necessity in the open obs to find the step stool, and in the yard to avoid tripping over things. I don't know what the NELM is, I never tested it, but I cannot tell much difference from Texas Star Party or Okie-Tex when the humidity is low and the sky is transparent. The CSC shows gray color for Bortle 2. The site is elev 2,410 on an E-W ridge, and about 500 feet above the valleys to the N. and S. There are no local yard or street lights.
-------------------- ?
Observing since 1966
Messier Cert #898
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George N
sage
Reged: 05/19/06
Posts: 303
Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Have never seen M33 directly anywhere ...
I think this is one of the places where Bortle's criteria need fixing. I'm quite sure I can't see M33 with direct vision, and I'm pretty sure that there are very, very few people who can. .
Gee I can see M-33 pretty easily (even with my 60 year-old eyes) from my camp on Indian Lake in the central Adirondacks (Clear Sky Chart/Clock/Whatever see: (http://www.cleardarksky.com/c/WklyMtnNYkey.html?1) sez that the area is Bortle Scale 1. I first noticed it about 10 years ago and said to myself ‘no way’, but then keeping the glow fixed in my gaze I moved my 7x50 binocs over my eyes and sure enough there was M-33. Since that time I gage how dark it is in the Indian Lake area by the visibility of M-33 (assuming that it’s up). I’ve not tried it at Cherry Springs PA, but I think that it’s dark enough there to see M-33 on a good night.
I’ve found that Clear Sky Chart color bands and SQM readings are pretty consistent. CSC lists Indian Lake NY as Bortle Scale 1 and there are no light domes, clouds are totally black anywhere in the sky, etc. I’ve not tried the SQM there yet. I often observe in southern New York from yellow/green border areas (my house and Kopernik Observatory) and find that I can notice the difference in the Milky Way between the two and also get a difference in SQM readings. One impact that I’ve noted: Kopernik Observatory is located on a 1200 foot high hill, while most of the light pollution in the area comes from Binghamton NY and two other towns that lie to the north in a river valley. During the spring and fall the river valley often fogs up while the hill tops remain above the mist. On those occasions it becomes very noticeably darker at Kopernik. I would say that valley fog moves it from ‘yellow’ to ‘green’, and SQM readings support that.
George N
-------------------- George N
Obsession 20
Optical Guidance Systems 10" F/9 R-C Cass
6" F/5 & 8" F/8 home-made Newts
MI-250 mount
SBIG STL-1301E CCD
Member, International Dark-Sky Association
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
   
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1227
Loc: AR
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Quote: (http://www.cleardarksky.com/c/WklyMtnNYkey.html?1) sez that the area is Bortle Scale 1.
If you look carefully you will see that this site is actually gray (Bortle 2). It is surrounded by blue (B3). The shading differences between B1 and B2 are very subtle. Are there ANY B1 sites in the USA east of the Mississippi River?
-------------------- ?
Observing since 1966
Messier Cert #898
Edited by John Fitzgerald (07/09/08 06:31 PM)
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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I said:
Quote:
I think this is one of the places where Bortle's criteria need fixing. I'm quite sure I can't see M33 with direct vision, and I'm pretty sure that there are very, very few people who can. .
And Geroge N responded:
Quote:
Gee I can see M-33 pretty easily (even with my 60 year-old eyes) from my camp on Indian Lake ...
Oh, I can see M33 without much trouble -- even from sites that are quite far from dark. But not with direct vision.
Most experienced deep-sky observers find it very difficult not to use averted vision.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
If you look carefully you will see that this site is actually rated Bortle 2. It is surrounded by blue (B3). The shading differences between B1 and B2 are very subtle. Are there ANY B1 sites in the USA east of the Mississippi River?
No, the darkest land areas east of the Mississippi are colored gray in Cinzano's map. Only the center of Lake Superior and territorial waters in the Atlantic and Gulf are colored black.
BTW, I implore people not to state their color zones in terms of Bortle classes. The proper names are black, gray, blue, green, yellow, orange, red, and white. The correlations between these color zones and the Bortle classes listed in the Clear Sky Chart are known to be innacurate in some cases, are hypothetical at best, and are liable to change.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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