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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6134
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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The history of the H400 list is presented here.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Bill Weir
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 879
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Quote:
NGC 6118 is generally considered to be the most difficult object on the H400 list and it certainly was for me. I was unable to see the slightest hint of it, despite repeated attempts, through the 17 and 20-inch classical Cassegrains at the ASH Naylor Observatory and at a friend's private observatory with somewhat darker skies. I finally logged it at Stellafane ten years ago using Phil Harrington's venerable 8" f/7 Criterion Newtonian.
Dave Mitsky
I always find it interesting when I see what is considered difficult. If NGC 6118 is considered the most difficult of the H400 then they are all possible with a 6" scope. I've seen NGC 6118 several times with my 6" dob. All of these were on nights of good transparency. It's that 6th mag star right next to it that makes it difficult.
It was back years ago when I was learning my way around the sky and would just open the page of my Cambridge Star Atlas and try to find everything on it. There were several nights of failure until on one great night I had success. Sometimes ignorance as to the difficulty of an object is bliss. Don't tell me it's tough, let me find out for myself.
I still often just open up an atlas to the meridian and go at it. I've found alot of excellent objects that way that I don't see on any list.
Bill
-------------------- 6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar II ED Doublet
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2007, 171.
So far in 2008, 111
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sgottlieb
sage
Reged: 07/22/07
Posts: 237
Loc: SF Bay area
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Quote:
I've seen NGC 6118 several times with my 6" dob. All of these were on nights of good transparency. It's that 6th mag star right next to it that makes it difficult.
Excellent observation with a 6", Bill, but why not keep the distracting 6th mag star out of the field since it's 17' NE of the galaxy?
-------------------- Steve Gottlieb
18" f/4.3 Starmaster
Adventures In Deep Space - New article on MASH planetaries
7500+ NGC/IC Visual Descriptions
NGC/IC Project
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
If NGC 6118 is considered the most difficult of the H400 then they are all possible with a 6" scope.
Yes, many people have done the Herschel 400 with 6-inch scopes. It's not hard at all under dark skies.
I'm not sure I'd call NGC 6118 the hardest. It's undoubtedly the faintest, but when all is said and done, it's just a pretty typical, moderately small, moderately low-surface-brightness galaxy. A little tricky through my 7-inch scope from medium-dark skies (SQM 21.1), but extremely obvious in my 12.5-incher from the same location.
NGC 6540, a heavily obscured globular cluster, is the one of the Herschel 400 that gave me the most trouble. Not so much seeing it as being sure what I was seeing, or supposed to be seeing.
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
Edited by Tony Flanders (07/10/08 06:01 AM)
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6134
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Quote:
I'm not sure I'd call NGC 6118 the hardest. It's undoubtedly the faintest, but when all is said and done, it's just a pretty typical, moderately small, moderately low-surface-brightness galaxy. A little tricky through my 7-inch scope from medium-dark skies (SQM 21.1), but extremely obvious in my 12.5-incher from the same location.
NGC 6540, a heavily obscured globular cluster, is the one of the Herschel 400 that gave me the most trouble. Not so much seeing it as being sure what I was seeing, or supposed to be seeing.
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
I had relatively little trouble with NGC 6540, which was the second most difficult H400 object according to some sources, but my first sighting of NGC 6118 absolutely required dark skies.
In June of 2002, my friend Tony Donnangelo, who is a truly first class observer, and I saw no hint of NGC 6118 through his 10" Meade LX5 SCT under slightly better than sixth magnitude skies at an ASH dark site in western Perry County, Pennsylvania. I've had no succcess with detecting NGC 6118 from Cherry Springs State Park, the IDA's second International Dark Sky Park, with my 101mm Tele Vue refractor. The Blinking Galaxy is visible through larger apertures from that location, of course.
Ed Ting relates his experience with observing NGC 6118 from a dark site in Arizona at http://www.scopereviews.com/az.html
"Halfway through the night, I laid some time aside to look for NGC 6118 in Serpens, which is roundly considered the most difficult Herschel object of them all. It's a relatively large galaxy with almost no surface brightness. Many experienced observers go their whole lives without seeing it. On this night, I found NGC 6118 in about thirty seconds. It looks a little bit like M33 does in my TeleVue Ranger under modest light pollution."
Here's what Jay Reynolds Freeman had to say about NGC 6118 and NGC 6540 during his quest to observe the Herschel 400 with a 55mm refractor:
"NGC 6118 lies in eastern end Serpens Caput, near a sixth-magnitude star (which is actually in Ophiuchus), about two degrees south of the celestial equator. That star was visible to the naked eye, and even if it hadn't been, nearby lambda, epsilon, and delta Ophiuchi made the field easy to locate. I observed with two eyepieces, alternating between a 12 mm Brandon (37x) and a 20 mm Meade Research Grade Erfle (22x). I used the _Millennium_Star_Atlas_, which shows plenty of nearby stars, so the precise location of the object was not in doubt.
With each of the eyepieces, I saw a faint, diffuse, and not very centrally concentrated glow, popping in and out at the limit of averted vision, at the charted position. Jiggling the telescope, or moving it slightly with the slow motions, helped a bit. The glow was detectable only ten or twenty percent of the time, but it kept reappearing at the same place, and I do not see similar fluctuations of intensity at random places in such fields, so I logged it.
Make no mistake -- this was a very tough object, certainly the toughest so far in my Herschel-400 survey with Refractor Red. When I say "detection", I mean no more than that. NGC 6118 would have gone unnoticed had I not known in advance exactly where to look, or had I not been patiently willing to pull every trick in my book to find it. I suspect that the root of the difficulty is that the object does not have nearly as large a central concentration to its brightness as do most galaxies; such a bright core to an image seems to draw the eye, and give the brain a reference point for locating the fainter, outer periphery of the object. Or so I would conjecture.
Since I had essentially an equally good view at 22x (2.5 mm exit pupil) and 37x (1.5 mm exit pupil), I suspect that an interim magnification -- perhaps with a 2 mm exit pupil -- might have been best for that object on that night. Unfortunately, I had only brought a handful of eyepieces, and did not have one available.
On the next evening I was at Fremont Peak again, this time with my Meade 5-inch refractor (model 127 ED). Sky conditions were similar, so I looked for NGC 6118 in the larger telescope, using 36x (Orion 32 mm Sirius Plossl) -- a magnification very similar to one of the ones I had used with Refractor Red. The object was much easier -- with five times the light grasp, that's no surprise -- and I was able to confirm the appearance that I had seen in the smaller instrument.
NGC 6540, located just off the spout of the Sagittarius "Teapot", is something of a puzzle. The visual description from the original catalog is a faint, sparse, open cluster which is relatively small in angular size. Yet what _Millennium_ plots is a ten-arc-minute globular. What I saw with the 12 mm Brandon in Refractor Red (37x) was a six or seven arc-minute unresolved circular glow, just noticeably brighter than the background (which was pretty bright -- this object is in the Sagittarius Milky Way, after all), with a smaller, brighter core superimposed. The core might have been one or two arc-minutes in diameter, it was unresolved, and it did not appear to have diffuse edges. The entire apparition was dead on the atlas position for NGC 6540, and was notably easier than NGC 6118."
Refractor Red: NGC 6118 and NGC 6540 by Jay Reynolds Freeman
[Edit: shortened the hyperlink]
Dave Mitsky
Edited by Olivier Biot (07/13/08 08:22 AM)
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MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Redlands, CA
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Quote:
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
Dang, Tony. That's not a report, that's two or three book chapters! Outstanding.
Mike
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 dob
Tele Vue Plossls 32,25,20,15,11
13 Nagler T6
10.5 Pentax XL
Brandon 32, 16
12.5 UO ortho, 9 Circle T ortho
2x TV Barlow
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Bill Weir
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 879
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Last night I was out at the observatory with a couple of frieds. I had my 12.5" with me. Around midnight, with the Moon still hovering above the horizon. I had a look at NGC 6540. It was not a difficult object at all. I see now that I need to put it on my 6" scope globular cluster quest list. I thought I was finished for my latitude but I see now that I'm not.
I then swung the scope towards NGC 6118. Now I know that I was pointed more towrds the Moon but by then it was starting to dip below the horizon. It took every trick in the book including a "monk's hood" to make that puppy show.
The transparency was not a factor. Before observing these two, I had managed a clear observation of NGC 6302 a scant 4 degrees above the horizon at 365X and was able to see detail.
The surprise observation of that time was NGC 6520. Ihis interesting open cluster, lies a very short distance to the west of 6540. The McDonald's arches of stars overlaying the rectangular scattering of fainter stars gives it a very unique look.
Bill
-------------------- 6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar II ED Doublet
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2007, 171.
So far in 2008, 111
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Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
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One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance. So what's after the Messier list is the real astronomy of the Messier objects. They get more interesting to look at the more you know about them. Has anyone made a list of Messier open clusters by increasing astronomical age? That would make an interesting magazine article, with a photo of each cluster next to its astronomical description: the sequence would show how the appearance of open clusters change as they age. Then, when you're looking at the NGC objects, you could say; "Well heck, this NGC 7789 in Cassiopeia reminds me of M37 in Auriga, which is fairly old--so it must be fairly old too." And you'd be right. We don't need more observing lists: we need more observing guides that tell us exactly what we're looking at.
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wojo
super member
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 145
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CROSSEN ......... THANK YOU for steering this post back to it's original meaning .My initial question was to find informative info on what I was about to look at, not just some list. Like I posted originaly, O'MEARA'S and SUE FRENCH'S writtings are very informative, and even after logging through Messiers list twice. I still find myself re= reading O'MEARA'S book from time to time, to gather more info. It seems to me that whatever post I put up, the original question never seems to get answered, but dragged around , smeared around, or trails off in a endless debate!! Anyhow thanks for getting it on track. I will certainly Watch what I post about from now on,if at all.........WOJO
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Thomas_N
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Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
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With O'Meara you have to be careful when it comes to historical information. There are quite a few such errors in the introduction to the Herschel 400 Observing Guide. But OK. I guess that's peanuts. 
Thomas
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Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
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Please don't give up wojo! I've just joined the forums, and I hate to have them lose someone who can bring up such good questions! And your question gets right to the heart of what modern observing guides need to be. Messier marathons have their place; but afterwards any dyed-in-the-wool observer will want to make a closer acquaintance with each of these objects--and then with the NGC objects too--because so many of these objects offer so much to see if you know what to look for. But how should an observing guide that offers this be structured? The "Night Sky Observers Guide" illustrates the problem: if Kepple and Sanner had tried to include something about the astrophysics of each and every one of those hundreds of objects, can you imagine how big (and expensive) those volumes would be! The solution is probably how Robert Burnham, Jr. approached the problem: a good balance of tables (longer and more detailed than his) with explanatory text on more objects than he covered. For the moment all we can do is pick up info from scattered sources. Archinal and Hynes' "Open Clusters", for example, gives lots of good hard astrophysical data gleaned from the journals: but it is of limited value because they don't relate this data to each cluster's eyepiece appearance. The magazines could do this sort of thing more regularly: articles for serious observers on specific types of objects or constellations or areas of the sky with data tables and description. But will the market bear it? The old "Deep Sky" had done this but us out of print.
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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 287
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance.
I agree Crossen, with both the comments about Burnham's and the observing guides today with only their viewing commentary and no scientific constructs.
Growing up with the Burnham's books invoked further curiosity about the workings of the Universe. When the Burnham's books started to become dated, I fortunately had a friend in MI who had a tremendous knowledge of chemistry and physics, and our discussions of objects, processes, charts, and graphs continued where Burnham's left off, and was better than Burnham's in one regard in that it was interactive as opposed to static info in a book. This guy is one of two Mentors I had and the one responsible for teaching me to build scopes and, more importantly, sending me on my journey of investigation of Earth as a planet with geological processes and the interaction of the forces in physics and matter in the Universe.
I’ve now been in Arizona for 8 years, my friend has since moved to Tennessee, and we don’t talk as often, but, while I’m still looking for someone local of that caliber for Saturday night beer and conversations…, you know…, Cloudy Nights members, and this type of forum, are pretty amazing and I’m glad they/it exists.
Steven
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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As a beginner's version of all that, I really liked Turn Left at Orion-- it has a good blend of some basic science and information about what you are looking at, along with sketches and good finding info.
Much sparser than Burnham's, but richer than mere lists are Eicher's Observing the Universe from Your Backyard and Sanford's Observing the Constellations. Both have a good selection of objects in their tables, along with star charts (Sanford's are by Tirion, Eicher's are by some unknown 3rd grader! ) (just kidding, but they look hand drawn), and then descriptive blurbs about various objects, with a sprinkling of science info.
Burnham's works so well because he blends astronomy, the process of scientific reasoning and analysis, poetry, and mythology, along with descriptions. His 3-volume set is a rich introduction to astronomy and astrophysics.
What would be wonderful would be an updated version of Burnham's...
I've often thought that groups of amateurs, each responsible for a particular constellation, could update the science info and the observing descriptions... maybe an arrangement could be made with SEDs or another organization that already has information on the web to use some of their stuff, too. A nice set of star charts, with black and white photos of objects, along with the science would be a good blend.
Maybe this would be a good wiki project--one of those where worldwide people contribute updates, notes, revisions.
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6134
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Quote:
CROSSEN ......... THANK YOU for steering this post back to it's original meaning .My initial question was to find informative info on what I was about to look at, not just some list. Like I posted originaly, O'MEARA'S and SUE FRENCH'S writtings are very informative, and even after logging through Messiers list twice. I still find myself re= reading O'MEARA'S book from time to time, to gather more info.
It seems to me that whatever post I put up, the original question never seems to get answered, but dragged around , smeared around, or trails off in a endless debate!! Anyhow thanks for getting it on track. I will certainly Watch what I post about from now on,if at all.........WOJO
I don't mean to be critical but, despite the thread drift, you seem to be putting a somewhat unwarranted spin on things. In the first page of replies to your original query, six different observing guide books were suggested to you. Also, you did not name books by the above authors until they had already been mentioned by others.
Link
Dave Mitsky
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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6760
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Quote:
Knisely 132
From now on I'm calling the E.T. Cluster Knisely 132, I think it has a nice ring to it and for some reason it's stuck in my mind as such but is the "i" a long "i" or short? I assume the "K" and "e" is silent? So if my assumptions are correct it would be pronounced Neigh-slee, right?
The "i" in my name is long and the K is silent (as in the word "Knight"), so it is prounounced "ni-zlee". Still, I have had a lot of times when the name was mispronounced, and it is a very forgivable error. However, no one should use the K numbers (the only thing I want with my name on it is a new comet) . Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
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One of the problems of trying to re-do Burnham's I suspect would be the length of the final product: it's already a very long observing guide, and would be even longer if you add more detailed descriptions of more objects--to say nothing of more and longer tables. And yet, as the present forum by itself proves, today's amateur wants and needs more. So want can you cut? The constellation and star-name history? There are a lot of amateurs with no interest at all in history. And yet there are many who DO have such an interest. And I think both groups agree that one of the things that makes Burnham's masterpiece a masterpiece are his conversations (to call them "essays" just doesn't sound right!) about constellation and star-name history. So any writer bold (or foolhardy?) enough to try to re-do Burnham's immediately faces a staggeringly difficult question: What are the selection criteria for what's going to be in this thing? Following that is the question of organization: Given that this will be a constellation-by-constellation guide, how should the material be organized within each constellation? Object type instead of designation type, like Burnham used? The questions of exactly how to re-do Burnham's are intimidating.
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6134
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Some time ago there was talk about an updated version of Burnham's but, according to one source, the logistics of reproducing the text, apparently due to the manner in which it was originally printed, would make it an almost impossible undertaking.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
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Some time ago there was talk about an updated version of Burnham's but, according to one source, the logistics of reproducing the text, apparently due to the manner in which it was originally printed, would make it an almost impossible undertaking.
The published "Burnham's Celestial Handbook", as it appears in print, was TYPED by Robert Burnham, Jr.! In effect, then, he did the type-setting and page-composition himself. I've seen the original edition of the the first two volumes, which Burnham self-published: they do not differ from those volumes as published by Dover in 1978. Those first two volumes were advertised by Dover in the summer of 1978 and the third volume became available early the next year. I suspect that with modern scanning the technical problems of recreating the book with the same text but new illustrations and photos, and a new type, are managable. But so much of both the astronomical data and star-name history in "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" is out-of-date, what would be the point of reprinting it? The style of the writing is incomparable; so how could another hand effectively update it? And don't forget how reluctant any publisher had been to take the book. (Burnham himself describes this in a "Self-Interview" in one of the 1982 issues of "Astronomy" magazine.) Anybody who would want to do a new Burnham's--either a simple update, or from scratch--would no doubt have trouble locating a publisher because of the up-front costs of production.
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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
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I think the idea would be to just update the astronomical data, but NOT interfere with, change, or alter the prose, the history, the poetry, the archeology and mythology discussions, etc.
A wiki style approach could work, with different clubs taking different constellations, or different amateurs signing up for different objects to research and update the data.
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2576
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The "Celestial Handbooks" are a classic because they helped spark a firestorm within the amateur community. When the handbooks were published, all those thousands of galaxies, clusters and nebulae were new territory ready for exploration. No one had ever attempted a Messier marathon, there was no "Herschel 400" list, and the very mention of names like Arp and Hickson would have drawn a blank look from most astronomy enthusiasts. (When did the Astronomical League issue their first Messier club observing award?) Deep sky observing was ready to explode as the focus of amateur astronomy and Burnham helped light the fuse.
His timing couldn't have been better. The Moon had been conquered. NASA was sending probes to the nearest planets and the resulting photos were gradually removing the veil of mystery from these worlds. Burnham celebrated the deep-sky at a time when the amateur community was searching for a new frontier of visual observing.
Today, deep-sky observing is a well-established niche within amateur astronomy. Though harsh sounding, it may be that Burnham's time has passed. Burnham was, in some respects, one generation's prophet. He spread the good word about the wonders of observing the deep sky. But each generation finds its own prophets. Eventually, the "Celestial Handbooks" will be--if they haven't already been--replaced by a new touchstone for the next generation of amateur astronomer.
Rather than attempt to re-write or update an established classic, why not strive to be bold? Create a work that celebrates a new frontier of amateur astronomy at the very time when amateurs are ready to embrace and explore something new. But keep in mind, the next frontier of amateur astronomy is not visual observing.
Where does the next frontier reside? CCD imaging? video astronomy? Cosmology? Imagine a piece of software that allows a computer to mathematically model ideas expressed in common, every day language. Wouldn't it be something if this suite of computer tools served to inspire a new generation of armchair cosmologists? Wouldn't it be amazing if someone actually used that software to produce groundbreaking work?
Pie in the sky? Probably. But that's the kind of thing that's going to be embraced as the next Burnham's. We don't need an update of Burnham's. We need a fresh idea.
Bill in Flag
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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