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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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ibn ezra
member


Reged: 04/23/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Virginia
SCT Optical Coatings
      #2516843 - 07/13/08 05:15 PM

I see plenty of ads about the net for used SCTs (here on CN & elsewhere), some dating back to the 80s.

The current SCT products from Celestron feature 'Starbright XLT' optical coatings. Before that it looks like it was just 'Starbright.' Is the optical quality difference between these two, more recent, optical coatings significant enough that I should be concerned when considering used equipment?

Thanks!
-iE

--------------------
Celestron C8-S OTA
Celestron CG-5 ASGT Tripod & Mount
William Optics CF Dielectric Diagonal
StellarVue F50B2 Finder
Baader Planetarium Hyperion 13mm Eyepiece
Celestron 25mm Plössl

'You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.'
-Maimonides


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Bob Griffiths
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Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4125
Loc: Frederick Maryland
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: ibn ezra]
      #2517759 - 07/14/08 06:07 AM

For visual use I really can not "see" any difference..I use an 8i
that has the plain Starbright Coatings, my one son uses an 8SE with the Starbright XLT coatings...set up side by side using the same eyepiece (swapped between scopes) neither of us can "see" any difference at all....

BUT I suspect that the newer coatings are better its just that they may need a Camera to make use of the improvements..

Personally I would not care about what coatings were used on a used scope, (I'm visual only btw) my purchase would be governed by what my eye showed me...

Bob G

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W


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Gaz O'C
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 1260
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #2517832 - 07/14/08 08:00 AM


Are the 'special' SCT coatings applied to the corrector and mirror or just the corrector?

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14" f4.5 Dob
10" Meade SCT
180mm f15 Mak/Cass
127mm f12 Mak/Cass
150mm f5 refractor
ED100
EQ6 Skyscan
HEQ5
EQ2

http://stargazerslounge.co.uk/


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rmollise
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 1558
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: ibn ezra]
      #2517850 - 07/14/08 08:12 AM

Quote:

I see plenty of ads about the net for used SCTs (here on CN & elsewhere), some dating back to the 80s.

The current SCT products from Celestron feature 'Starbright XLT' optical coatings. Before that it looks like it was just 'Starbright.' Is the optical quality difference between these two, more recent, optical coatings significant enough that I should be concerned when considering used equipment?

Thanks!
-iE




Visually, the difference is minor. But it is there. I've done shootouts with both XLT vs. Starbright and UHTC vs. MCOG, and the newer coatings win. Not by much, but the difference is detectable. My adive? Always buy the best coating offered. Not only will you be happier, the scope will be easier to sell if it ever comes to that.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using the New CATs--coming soon!


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w orchid
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/23/07
Posts: 664
Loc: Tampa, Fl
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: rmollise]
      #2517940 - 07/14/08 09:33 AM

BTW, with care the coatings due last a long time. Mine are still in great shape.

--------------------
Celestron C8 orange tube circa 1982
Stellarvue SV102ED


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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 1723
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: ibn ezra]
      #2517947 - 07/14/08 09:42 AM

One of the primary changes to the later XLT scopes was actually not so much the coatings. The Starbright Coatings were quite good.

The biggest difference I think was in the chance of the GLASS in the corrector.. They went to a "Water White" glass which has much better transmission properties.

As for the difference? Some people report seeing a difference, some don't.

I have a C14 with XLT coatings. The tranparency of the corrector is freaky... At night when you look into the front of the scope, you can't even SEE the corrector. It is TOTALLY invisible.

My own belief is that it does help.

Not only do the coatings and the new glass improve transmission, but one of the main Contrast issues with the SCT design is that off axis light entering the scope can reflect against the BACK of the corrector. Anything that improves the corrector's ability to let that light pass back out improves contrast by keeping it from getting to the focal plane or eyepiece.

My guess though is that the difference is very subtle.

But I have every confidence that people that say that they can see a difference do indeed see a difference.

As an example, for decades, we have been told that we shouldn't be concerned with off-axis illumination falloff in many scope designs. Over the years, I have become far more sensitive to it. And when someone tells me that they can see a difference in one coating or another, I am not at all inclined to doubt it.

But again, whatever difference thats going to be there is going to be VERY VERY SUBTLE.

If I were buying used and had to choose between an SCT with XLT, and one where the seller was standing behind the Non-XLT scope with a solid appraisal guarentee that is scope was an excellent sample, I would rather have that scope than the one with unknown optical quality even if it had XLT coatings.

Finally, I would be less interested in an early 80s scope. I don't know when they started coating the rear of the corrector (see above) but I know that early SCTs did not have this.

Also, it is very hard to know how long the coatings from back then will last. Newer coatings (Starbright) have overcoating that will probably make the coatings last longer. But this is ONE topic that I wish we could get more substancial guidance on. It would be great if one of the Magizines or some hobbiest group could do some formal testing. But anyway, that is what might keep me from getting an older scope even if the seller said the optics were excellent.

If buying new, get the XLT simply because it will help resale. Lots of people think that just because a scope doesn't have XLT it is going to be inferrior in some way to an XLT scope.. They simply don't want them. GREAT way to find a superfine C8 though. The last C8 I owned had Starbright coatings but the optics were superb for a SCT. I got it for a freaking STEAL on it. I think I paid $375.

Good luck.

--------------------
Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)

The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.


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ibn ezra
member


Reged: 04/23/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Virginia
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: Eddgie]
      #2519034 - 07/14/08 07:55 PM

Thanks for the thoughts on the various coating flavors... my C6 has a defect in the inside of the corrector plate (a small pit, or perhaps something dinged it) and I'm returning it. I think, as I'm not really prepared for the astrophoto outlay, nor resale I will 'settle' for a used C8 of some flavor.

On a completely different tack, I've read folks advocate cleaning the corrector plate with everything from distilled water to Windex. I think if someone cleaned my Nikkor AIS lenses (35mm pre-digital SLR) with Windex I'd cry (or swear, depending on company) as it's murder on the multi-coatings. What's the verdict on SCTs?

Thanks again!
-iE

--------------------
Celestron C8-S OTA
Celestron CG-5 ASGT Tripod & Mount
William Optics CF Dielectric Diagonal
StellarVue F50B2 Finder
Baader Planetarium Hyperion 13mm Eyepiece
Celestron 25mm Plössl

'You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.'
-Maimonides


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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 1723
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: ibn ezra]
      #2519293 - 07/14/08 09:59 PM

Well, it might be bad, but I have from time to time used Windex.. I haven't seen any problems as a result, but that doesn't mean that it is without risk.

The Assistant Astronomer and I went eyeglass shopping for her a few months ago. The coatings on her glasses were in bad shape. The people at the "Cheap" eyeglass store SWORE that it was because I used Windex on them.

I myself buy my glasses from an Optomitrist. I pay a lot more for them...

I have cleaned them with Windex for 2.5 years, and the coatings look PERFECT!... Moral here? Maybe CHEAP coatings will be affected by it, but clearly a well applied high quality coating can take it.. I clean my glasses with Windex EVER EVER EVERY Day.. I spray on a mist, and let it sit for about 10 seconds, then simply rinse under hot water... Never hardly touch the lens. And again, the coatings look PERFECT... that is after about 900 cleanings...

So, if you ask me, if the coatings are high quality, I think that a bit of windex won't hurt them...

But I sure wouldn't PROMISE that....

But mostly, I try to avoid cleaning the corrector. It has to get pretty dirty to cause any problems.

Regards.

--------------------
Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)

The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.


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Dan McC
member


Reged: 11/11/06
Posts: 51
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: Eddgie]
      #2519436 - 07/14/08 11:18 PM

I had an orange tube C14 and recently got an XLT C14 and could notice a difference -- but then one coating was 20+ years older. In the old scope, Beta Andromeda looked 'white' but in the XLT it looked yellow. I was able to see the galaxy NGC 891 for the first time with the new scope at the first opportunity but had looked in vain for it with the Orange tube scope many times. (I have moderate light pollution so it really is a difficult object for me.)

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a-l-e-x
sage


Reged: 12/25/07
Posts: 488
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: rmollise]
      #2520211 - 07/15/08 11:28 AM

Ive heard that XLT coatings on an 8 inch scope improve it to the level of an 8.6" sct (if there ever was such a thing) with starbright coatings-- halfway to a 9.25"! Also, the coatings supposedly last twice as long (over 30 years).

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We love our precious Harmony, our sweetest Destiny and our darling Sonya Marie !!!

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skybsd
sage


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 274
Re: SCT Optical Coatings new [Re: ibn ezra]
      #2526003 - 07/18/08 07:39 AM

Hi,
Good to hear from you..,


Quote:

The current SCT products from Celestron feature 'Starbright XLT' optical coatings. Before that it looks like it was just 'Starbright.' Is the optical quality difference between these two, more recent, optical coatings significant enough that I should be concerned when considering used equipment?




You didn't provide any background information for why you'd need to be concerned.

That said.., I asked this very question of Celestron earlier this year. According to Celestron's documentation , StarBright XLT multicoating provides increased transmission at the corrector plate by (approximately) 16%, and reflection at the mirrors by approximately 2%.

Now, what does that mean to you? Who knows..,

I can tell you what it meant to me after reviewing the information in the data.

(Most) humans under average (that is.., NOT exceptional) seeing conditions, won't tell the difference visually. Though.., I have seen comments from others (that declared themselves to be human) who claim that they do "see" the difference.

However, from an astrophotography point of view (for me, the context was DSLR imaging / processing), that ~16% increase in light throughput + ~2% increase in mirror reflectivity does does result in a real, and very discerable difference to the chip, and associated image potential.

Have a read.., have a think.., then have a go at resolving what concerns you may have.

Hope this helps..,

Regards,

skybsd


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