|
Bob R.
super member
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 118
Loc: Connecticut
|
|
Paul,
Excellent job on this project. The results speak volumes. Couple of quick questions:
Do you have a recommended parts list for the items you've used?
What do you use to control you Peltier to ensure you don't experience thermal runaway?
in advance thank you for your advice.
Bob R.
-------------------- Meade LX200, 25.4cm, f10, UHTC, GPS
SAC7b Camera
Adaptive optic, 7mm, f3, bino-viewer
|
gazerjim
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7536
Loc: San Angelo, TX
|
|
I bought my Peltiers from
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html?gclid=CMPn-8WH3o4CFVB1OAod6w4vRw
They have yet to see first voltage; except for one connected to a 9V battery to confirm hot and cold sides. The number of choices offered can be a bit confusing. Notice also that the Peltiers come in at least 2 basic types: sealed and unsealed. Sealed simply means that the "sandwich" that is the Peltier is factory sealed edge on to keep out moisture.
I'm not familiar with thermal runaway in Peltiers. I would guess that adequate heatsinks and heatsink cooling should
obviate the problem. Paul is our Peltier Guru here and probably has more info.
ADD. I've since done some googling about thermal runaway in Peltiers. This has me wondering if I should feed mine with a
Pulse Width Modulator or current limiting device??
http://reference.techpowerup.com/Thermoelectric_Cooling
Jim
-------------------- Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
Edited by gazerjim (12/03/07 11:58 PM)
|
rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2233
Loc: South Australia
|
|
Bob, sorry I dont really have a recommended parts list, although the peltiers Jim bought will be fine.
To stop run away I watch the temperature unit. This gives a pretty accurate reading. I am planning on another modification in the new year, perhaps a sensor on the edge of the mirror and one in the actual air itself.
-------------------- EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
|
gazerjim
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7536
Loc: San Angelo, TX
|
|
Thanks again to Paul for making this an open thread for peltier projects.
Here's the latest pic of my newt cooler. It gets less aesthetically pleasing as work progresses. But I think an endpoint is finally within sight.
I have placed a terminal strip on each inside face of the box; one for a + bus and the other (-). Radio Shack stocks these along with an optional strip fitting one side which makes all connections electrically common for each strip.
The next step will be to solder spade lugs to wire ends from the peltiers and the fans. One switch will activate the small inside fan (not shown). Both switches on will run the works. The box should be plenty crowded with wires.
-------------------- Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
Edited by gazerjim (12/10/07 05:29 AM)
|
Bob R.
super member
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 118
Loc: Connecticut
|
|
Jim,
Evidently thermal run away comes into play when you try to pump more heat into the heat sink than it can handle. Once this happens, the peltier, rather than pump heat, starts to act as a resistor and becomes a 'heater'. Unfortunately, this is a non-linear phenomenon, and if left unchecked, the peltier can get very hot in short order. I experienced this when I got a little too aggressive with the current.
I've found an outfit that sells a pulsewidth modulated controller for about $50. It uses a PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller to quickly approach a temperature set point, but according to the manufacturer can only hold +/- half a degree. From what I've read from Paul, it appears you need to get the mirror to something on the order of 0.1 degree. This controller might still be useful, but not for controlling to a set point or reference temperature, i.e. outside temperature.
Bob R.
-------------------- Meade LX200, 25.4cm, f10, UHTC, GPS
SAC7b Camera
Adaptive optic, 7mm, f3, bino-viewer
|
gazerjim
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7536
Loc: San Angelo, TX
|
|
Thanks for the good info, Bob! I'm a newbie to peltiers. But I know that circuits handling high current and/or voltage can go haywire in spectacular ways. It would be nice to have control of the feed power.
Just got in from imaging Mars and I'm starting to wonder if the seeing from this location is ever anything but bad. Everything 'vibrates' at high mag.
If I go portable I will eventually need a small generator for this cooler that may be finished by the next ice age.
-------------------- Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
|
Gendo
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 3231
Loc: Rexburg, ID
|
|
I like your idea for a switch Jim. I have thought about adding one switch that turns off the Peltier, but continues running both fans. I have noticed that peltiers briefly get warm on the cold side when you turn off the power. Keeping the heatsink fan running should help minimize that.
I too am a relative newbie to these peltiers, but I've learned a few things so far with the 2 models I've experimented with now, and from what info I've read online.
I'm modding my C11 very similar to how Paul Haese did his C14 since mine's an SCT. I'm going to use an M-size, panel mount, coaxial power jack by just drilling a larger hole into the back of the cell. It plugs into my switching PS perfectly. I'm still on the lookout for a similarly sized push button switch (Radio Shack had nothing I liked). I'm thinking right there in between the C11's metal handle is the perfect spot for them. Then my wires will mostly be inside the OTA, except right there at the cooler, and the mirror temp. sensor.
I'll also say that as far as I can tell the total peltier heat generated is a bit less than the wattage of the TEC (amps times volts used) plus the rated Qmax (energy transfer from cold to hot side). Peltiers will try to draw their rated amperage, so you really need a switching power supply that is at or is exceeding the peltier's rated amperage (don't forget about the few hundred milliamps for the fans).
I imagine some of the rated wattage isn't dissipated as heat, so it'd be a bit less than this. For example I've decided to use a 72w 6a peltier @ 12v. It's Qmax should be about 50w @ 12v. So it will be roughly 110-115w of total potential heat generated on the hot side. This is right at my chosen heatsink's (Swiftech MCX775-V) heat dissipation rating with a 37.5cfs 80mm fan. I'll also give the heatsink the benefit of the doubt that is has a bit more ability to dissipate heat in a cool outside environment since the heatsink isn't going to be cooped up inside a PC case like its designed for (recirculating hotter air diminishes efficiency and it was designed with that environment in mind). You'll want a bit of overhead like that. The main thing to remember if you're assembling a peltier system from parts, like I am doing, is to make certain you chose an adequate heatsink or you will have a runaway buildup of heat that will eventually lead to fire/meltdown (as the 168w 10a peltier I tested on this heatsink tried to do). I'm pushing it really close to the limit, but I think it'll work out just right. At some point the experiment has to include the mirror cell to really know how efficiently it'll suck heat out of cell (it may not meet Qmax level of efficiency which would be better), so the actual modification is my next step.
I will try to visually document stages of my mod to share here. It might still be a few weeks, depending on my free time next weekend.
One last frame of reference. Paul tells me his peltier units are about 80w @ 12v together for the C14, and they are working good judging by his Jupiter shots. I'm going to use just a bit less at 72w @ 12v and I think it should be more than adequate. This should give you guys a basis on which to choose the power of peltier(s) to use on a given SCT size.
|
rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2233
Loc: South Australia
|
|
Hey Justin, I think I said that the units are 40w each. Your single one is 72w and is the better unit to have. I did mine on the cheap, but yours is the better way of doing this.
Large heat sinks certainly are the way to go, both mine are 4" square or there abouts, they remove the heat really well. However I could increase the efficiency of the peltiers with increasing the current up to 14 volts rather than using a 12 volt rail. Also fully covering the rear back will increase the overall efficiency too. I currently have the fins exposed but have built up the foam layers to be level with the tops of the supporting fins.
-------------------- EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
|
Freddy WILLEMS
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 676
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
|
|
Aloha Paul,
Hope you're still awake, The C 14 came in the mail a few days ago and I dismanteld the whole SCT, quite a fun project, Lots for markings and numbers and pictures for re assembeling later. Now Paul just a fast question, What is the best place to put the mirror sensor for the temperatur ? Best place on the mirror, center or outside edge ? Freddy
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier (Time Machine)
Celestron C 14" cooling & remodel work in progress
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D
And lots of eyepieces and acc.
|
Freddy WILLEMS
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 676
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
|
|
< I bought my Peltiers from
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html?gclid=CMPn-8WH3o4CFVB1OAod6w4vRw >
Jim can you point out which peltier cooler are the best ones to use from that list in your post. Do they run on 12 V ?
Freddy
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier (Time Machine)
Celestron C 14" cooling & remodel work in progress
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D
And lots of eyepieces and acc.
|
rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2233
Loc: South Australia
|
|
Freddy I put the sensor near the baffle hole, but give it enough roon so that everything can move up and down as it should.
Best of luck with the project.
-------------------- EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
|
|
7 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 1010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|