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CWAVE
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Alberta, Canada
DSI CCD Question
      #2529088 - 07/19/08 09:08 PM

Hello. I'm new to the forum and fairly novice when it comes to astronomy.

I inherited an LX200 8" Schmidt Cassegrain telescope from my uncle a number of years ago, and have used it off and on to primarily look at the moon. It came with a huge selection of accessories, much of which I've never really used. My uncle was quite the Astronomy buff.

Never really figured out how to do the polar alignment with the wedge to track objects in the sky probably because I never really read the manual... Shame on me... probably a guy thing.

Anyways, my real interests lie in deep sky photography, and would like to try my hand at putting a CCD camera on this telescope. I found one on e-bay and was wondering if you guys/girls could provide some sort of comment on it... From what I've read, it sounds like a good one.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Meade-Deep-Sky-Imager-PRO-DSI-CCD-Camera-Autostar-NEW_W0QQitemZ200240162622

My LX200 telescope is about 10 years old (or in around there). It has the ability to track objects and has the hand held computer for selecting said objects. I would also be interested in knowing if this setup is compatible with the electronics of my LX200 8" that I have.

I do understand the challenges that surround CCD useage and that it's not straight forward or particularly easy. Not withstanding, I'm up for the challenge. Was wondering if those that know about these sorts of things could comment on this particular DSI CCD as to whether it's a good one or not.

Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Thomas


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DaemonGPF
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Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 1115
Loc: New Mexico
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529110 - 07/19/08 09:29 PM

DSI Pros are very nice CCD imagers. Not what I would call a research grade piece of equipment or anything, but it is good enough to carry beginning and advanced users for a good while. Do you have any others that you are looking into, or are you just asking if the DSI is decent or not?

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery


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CWAVE
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2529118 - 07/19/08 09:37 PM

Thanks for your quick reply. I haven't come across any others in my research. I kind of just started with Meade since that's the telescope that I have and am very pleased with the quality of their products as I've seen from the equipment I own. Figured I couldn't go too wrong with a Meade accessory like this.

I am not looking for professional or research grade, but something that's better than strapping a logitech quickcam to (Hee hee).

Really wanted to know if they are good imagers and if they'd be compatible with my telescope. I'd love to be able to use the software that comes with it to track the telescope. You wouldn't happen to know if it'd be compatible with my older non-GPS LX200 would you?

Thanks,
Thomas

Edited by CWAVE (07/19/08 09:38 PM)


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cnstarz
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/22/07
Posts: 526
Loc: Kentucky, USA
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529119 - 07/19/08 09:38 PM

Welcome to CN CWAVE,
The first gen monochrome DSI you've posted a link to is IMHO a good starter CCD, however the technology is moving pretty fast and many have already discounted the color variant of that camera to $99 in the last year or so. You should check out the beginning imaging threads and read about some of the other camera options before you buy. The next gen imagers were introduced recenty so you may be able to get a good deal on a used unit. Depending on your requirements and if budget allows you could easily find a better camera than the DSI-pro but it's hard to beat the price. You can see images I've made with my $99 DSI by clicking on the green highlighted link to my gallery. Note I've just started imaging and don't have much experience with the camera yet.
Good Luck,

--------------------
Matt

Apogee 50mm BB scope
ETX-60 BB
Meade 70-az
5" DIY Newt (wip)
C6-N on CG-4 GEM
Gallery


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DaemonGPF
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Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 1115
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529128 - 07/19/08 09:45 PM

I haven't messed with the LX200s, but I am sure someone on here will chime in quickly. There's nothing wrong with matching hardware either. It's not necessarily a bad philosophy.

Starting out, you may find it easier to learn and image on a color imager. DSI Pro monochrome imagers with filters are a very different animal and it takes a bit more labor and understanding to churn out a decent color image with one. Though, once you do understand one, I believe it does deliver an edge over an "all in one" color DSI.

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery


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DaemonGPF
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Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 1115
Loc: New Mexico
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2529139 - 07/19/08 09:50 PM

Thinking about your question more, what I can tell you is that even though the DSI software does provide "tracking", you can't do that with just your LX200 and a DSI alone... A single CCD chip imager like a DSI can either guide, or image, not both at the same time. You would need a guidescope, and a second imager, and your LX200 mount needs a guideport. Otherwise, you would need a dual CCD chip imager, in which case, the Meade Envisage software I don't think will support it. You'd have to get into third party guiding software. Not that this option is a bad thing, there's plenty of decent free apps out there. There is a ton of topics to really discuss here if you're looking into tracking/guiding.

If I am not mistaken, the LX200 sits on an Altazimuth mount? You might want to read on "field rotation" when imaging. It will be very important to you, more than anything. Short exposures won't be affected, long exposures most certainly will.

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery

Edited by DaemonGPF (07/19/08 09:54 PM)


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Protheus
Vaguely offended
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Reged: 09/01/07
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2529180 - 07/19/08 10:17 PM

Quote:

DSI Pros are very nice CCD imagers. Not what I would call a research grade piece of equipment or anything, but it is good enough to carry beginning and advanced users for a good while. Do you have any others that you are looking into, or are you just asking if the DSI is decent or not?




I doubt that -- these days -- any visual spectrum or near visual spectrum imager would be considered "research grade." Most research as I understand it is done in lower wavelengths.

Chris

--------------------
"To tread the sharp edge of a sword;
to run on smooth-frozen ice,
one needs no footsteps to follow..."

"Well, people sometimes ask me 'how did you get involved in astronomy?' I said 'I got born, what's your problem?'" -- John Dobson

"In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos, astronomers sometimes say that space is curved, or that the universe is finite but unbounded. Whatever are they talking about?" -- Carl Sagan


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CWAVE
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2529182 - 07/19/08 10:18 PM

Thanks.

I actually do have a wedge for my telescope. I believe the wedge is for setting up your polar alignment which as I understand it should take care of the field rotation problem you discuss. (I might be way off base here, if I am... sorry).

With respect to tracking an object in the sky, isn't that accomplished by the motor drive that's built into my LX200? The transit of the stars/objects across the sky would be constant, and should be matched to the telescopes built in tracking no?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your last comment.

I think my comment about tracking was incorrect. What I actually meant was utilizing the software to "goto" a particular object. I thought the actual tracking is handled by the LX200's drive.

Thanks,
Thomas


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Protheus
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529184 - 07/19/08 10:21 PM

Quote:


I actually do have a wedge for my telescope. I believe the wedge is for setting up your polar alignment which as I understand it should take care of the field rotation problem you discuss. (I might be way off base here, if I am... sorry).





No, properly used, a wedge (in combination with proper alignment and tracking) ought to completely eliminate field rotation.

Chris

--------------------
"To tread the sharp edge of a sword;
to run on smooth-frozen ice,
one needs no footsteps to follow..."

"Well, people sometimes ask me 'how did you get involved in astronomy?' I said 'I got born, what's your problem?'" -- John Dobson

"In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos, astronomers sometimes say that space is curved, or that the universe is finite but unbounded. Whatever are they talking about?" -- Carl Sagan


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CWAVE
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: Protheus]
      #2529221 - 07/19/08 10:50 PM

I really appreciate the flurry of comments and welcomes to the forum. I've been spending much of the day (as much time as my 3 yr old son allows me to anyways) on the site reading. Lots of great information here. Much more than can be absorbed today! I'm going to enjoy reading through this site.

If this monochrome CCD imager that I mentioned at the beginning of the thread is sharper or better quality than the color one mentioned, then I think I'd likely lean towards spending a little bit more on the monochrome and choose to buy the color filters later.

I plan on starting with the near-by neighbor, the moon and do some imaging there, then work my way to other objects in our sky.

I'm not sure that I'd want to spend much more than 400 bucks on this.

And thanks for recommending the beginning imaging threads! I'll see if I can find them.

If anyone is familiar with the software that comes with this Meade DSI Pro, and if it can control my older LX200 to goto objects in its database, I'd love to know.

Thanks for all your continued comments! You're a very friendly and helpful group.

Thomas


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jgraham
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Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5153
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: Protheus]
      #2529238 - 07/19/08 11:07 PM

I've used a DSI and DSI Pro on my Meade LXD75 SC8 and they work fine. The DSI Pro is particuarly well suited because of its high sensitivity and sharp image. The only problem I have with the specific item you link to is the price is a tad high. You should be able to find a DSI Pro for about $200 w/o filters (camera only) and $250-$300 for the camera w/ filters. Another option would be the Orion Deep Space Imager...

http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=astro-imaging_camera/~pcategory=astro-imaging/~product_id=52083

...which is a bit more expensive, but it has a larger chip and is available new from Orion.

One limitation of these cameras is the chip is fairly small, and you'll want an f/6.3 focal reducer to get a better field of view. Also, in these small chip sizes I'd shy away from color cameras as their images are a tad soft. However, a good Plan B would be to go with a DSLR like a Canon Rebel XT ($450-$550) or XTi (about $650). This would get you into a large format color camera that would be a great match for your 8" SCT. With my 8" scope I use my Rebel XT/XTi most of the time for general purpose deep sky and lunar imaging, but if I really want to go as deep as I can chasing small or very faint objects I use my DSI Pro.

--------------------
-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro, DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors


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jgraham
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: jgraham]
      #2529255 - 07/19/08 11:14 PM

Ahah! If $400 is your budget the DSI Pro is the way to go, but I would look for one that comes with the filters. The software that drives the camera has almost no functions that are telescope specific, so it will work fine with your LX200 (I've used mine on a couple of homebuilt telescopes). One caution; CCDs like the DSI Pro are primarily designed for deep sky imaging. The can be used for lunar and planetary imaging, but that's not what they're best at. L&P imaging has a different set of parameters than deep sky and simpler cameras like web cams are better suited for this task.

Given your budget, equipment, and objectives, the DSI Pro is a nice choice, but I would shop around a bit. For $400 you should be able to buy a DSI Pro w/ filters and still have enough left over for a Phillips SPC900NC web cam.

Plan B; look for a Canon Rebel XT on sale. I've seen them going for $450 with the Canon 18-55mm lens.

--------------------
-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro, DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors


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stkoepke
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Reged: 01/11/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Abilene, Texas
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529280 - 07/19/08 11:33 PM

Welcome to Cloudy Nights CWAVE.

If you are looking for a DSI there are a couple for sale right now in the Shop & Swap section. Less $$ than on Ebay.
Just click on the link in the Quote box below.

Quote:

2 DSI Pro's LNIB, one with color filters $250, the other monchrome $175. Shipping included CONUS only.




If you are intending to get one now you may want to PM the seller soon because they usually don't last long before they are sold. Although not to worry too much as they come up for sale often enough.

I have one of the DSI-C and one of the DSI PRO models with the filter sets and they have been good cameras to begin with. I'll move on the DSLR when I get better at imaging in the future though and keep one of the DSI's for a guide camera. The other will end up in the Shop & Swap section when that time comes.

You don't have to use filters with the monochrome DSI's unless you want color. You can simply use it for B&W photos at first until you get the hang of it and then use the filters afterwards and try your hand at color astrophotography when you feel comfortable in imaging. (Personally I'd get the one with filters so you don't have to find them later, just my opinion though...)

Astrophotography has a "steep learning curve" to it so be patient and expect to make mistakes. Everyone does...
(I have made more mistakes getting started than I care to admit... )

Although the DSI cameras can be used for taking pictures and be used for a guide scope, (a real must have for long term exposures), the camera also has another use that is a lot of fun. You can use it in "Live Mode" to see the sights instead of using your eyepieces. Fainter objects will require that you take an image to see detail. I usually use 20 sec. to 60 sec. exposures when doing this and stack at least 2 to 8 of them to get really good detail on most of them. The fainter the object the longer the exposure and the more pics to stack. Some may call this lazy but I don't care, there are times my eyes just get tired and have a hard time focusing even with my glasses. Besides it's good practice in getting used to the camera.

Take a look at the Beginning Imaging section and the Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy section.

Clear skies,

--------------------
Tim

God's Guidance

An Undestanding Wife - PRICELESS!!
C6R - Thanks Astronomics!!
Meade ETX 60AT-BB
(GOTO Backpack Observatory)
Meade 70AZ-A
Meade Starfinder 8" Dob.
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope - 6" f8 Newtonian
"Brother's" old Jason 60mm AZ

Lots of help from reading "Cloudy Nights" posts,
and Lots of Patience learned over time...



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CWAVE
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: stkoepke]
      #2529319 - 07/20/08 12:00 AM

Wow, the responses to my thread have been fantastic! I really appreciate the tip.

I've PM'd him and hopefully he'll ship to Canada. Looks like a terrific deal! Definitely will go for the one with the color filters if it's available still. Good call.

Everyones tips and comments are greatly appreciated!

Thomas


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cnstarz
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/22/07
Posts: 526
Loc: Kentucky, USA
Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529336 - 07/20/08 12:13 AM

If you go with the all Meade solution, and there are advantages to that continuity, you can find the latest software / firmware can be downloaded from the Meade site online. web page
Cheers,

--------------------
Matt

Apogee 50mm BB scope
ETX-60 BB
Meade 70-az
5" DIY Newt (wip)
C6-N on CG-4 GEM
Gallery


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stkoepke
sage
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Reged: 01/11/08
Posts: 225
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529352 - 07/20/08 12:31 AM

Here's a link to Meade's site for Intructional Videos on the DSI Camera.

And here's another to the Yahoo Meade DSI Group. 3700+ members.

Become a member first and then look in the files section, you will find a WEALTH of info on the DSI's.

And another Yahoo DSI Group, DeepSkyImager · Meade "Deep Sky Imager" (DSI) CCD Camera . 1600 members.

Both Yahoo groups very good and I belong to both of them but the 1st one has more activity in it. BTW, you may want to select the option of "Daily Digest" instead of "Individual Email" when joining the 1st one as there are usually a LOT of emails each day. (My two cents worth...)

Hope that helps...

--------------------
Tim

God's Guidance

An Undestanding Wife - PRICELESS!!
C6R - Thanks Astronomics!!
Meade ETX 60AT-BB
(GOTO Backpack Observatory)
Meade 70AZ-A
Meade Starfinder 8" Dob.
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope - 6" f8 Newtonian
"Brother's" old Jason 60mm AZ

Lots of help from reading "Cloudy Nights" posts,
and Lots of Patience learned over time...



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DaemonGPF
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: stkoepke]
      #2529756 - 07/20/08 09:31 AM

You are correct that the mount and hand controller will track, the Envisage software with the DSI won't track for you though with just one single chip imager like the DSI Pro, not if you're going to image with it. The tracking is only going to be so accurate on it's own, even with a polar alignment.

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery


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Snaproll
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2529787 - 07/20/08 10:04 AM

Hi Thomas, welcome to CN.

For topics like this you might want to consider posting them in "Beginning Imaging". You've got some very good replies here, and nothing wrong with posting here, but you might get more info posting in a forum closer to the topic.

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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ken svp120
scholastic sledgehammer


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Posts: 895
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2529951 - 07/20/08 12:05 PM

Quote:

I really appreciate the flurry of comments and welcomes to the forum. I've been spending much of the day (as much time as my 3 yr old son allows me to anyways) on the site reading. Lots of great information here. Much more than can be absorbed today! I'm going to enjoy reading through this site.

If this monochrome CCD imager that I mentioned at the beginning of the thread is sharper or better quality than the color one mentioned, then I think I'd likely lean towards spending a little bit more on the monochrome and choose to buy the color filters later.

I plan on starting with the near-by neighbor, the moon and do some imaging there, then work my way to other objects in our sky.

I'm not sure that I'd want to spend much more than 400 bucks on this.

And thanks for recommending the beginning imaging threads! I'll see if I can find them.

If anyone is familiar with the software that comes with this Meade DSI Pro, and if it can control my older LX200 to goto objects in its database, I'd love to know.

Thanks for all your continued comments! You're a very friendly and helpful group.

Thomas




That's the route I went...monochrome CCD (DSI Pro II) and I recently got a used set of HaRGB filters. CCD imaging is not at all like point and shoot. To get good data, you need to properly polar align, have a mount that tracks well, take various calibration frames, and have good seeing conditions. All that said...it only gets you part of the way there. Once you have images, you need to process them - that's a whole new endeavor.

It's definitely a fun pursuit but plan on investing some time in imaging. As you mentioned, knock around in the Beginning Imaging and CCD forums, they have a wealth of information.

Also, a very good resource for "hands on" learning would be to hook up with a local astronomy club - do a search for one on the internet if you don't already know of any. Chances are that some of the members will be imaging guys and can really help you out.

Good Luck and have a great time!

--------------------
Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 APO #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome


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Jared
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Re: DSI CCD Question new [Re: CWAVE]
      #2530887 - 07/20/08 09:25 PM

Hi, Thomas!

I've been doing deep sky imaging for a couple of years now and have gone from a Meade DSI Color to a Meade DSI Pro (first generation--like you are considering) to a Nikon D50 DSLR to an SBIG ST2000XCM and, most recently, to an SBIG STL-11000M. I have also gone through a progression of optical tubes and mounts. As a result, I think I can give you some insight into what the camera is capable of and what challenges you are likely to encounter.

First, the DSI-Pro is a very sensitive camera (a good thing) with a very low noise Sony chip. There are two downsides: the chip is quite small, so you will not get a very wide field of view, especially with your 8" SCT, and the monochrome cameras are relatively difficult to use. As a beginner, expect to spend two hours on the computer processing and fixing your photos for every hour you spend capturing them. That ratio is more like 1:1 if you are using a color camera (at least until you start to get really picky about your images, at which point it goes back to 2:1).

My biggest concern with the route you are taking is not the camera, but the telescope itself. An 8" SCT has a relatively long focal length, which makes it much more unforgiving of slight errors in polar alignment and tracking than, for example, a small refractor. I would definitely recommend an f/3.3 focal reducer if you get the DSI. That way you will be imaging at more like 600mm focal length--much easier to do. You will need to use the wedge, by the way, or field rotation will cause your stars to arc in as little as fifteen or twenty seconds.

One other choice I would seriously consider is a digital SLR rather than the Meade DSI. The camera wouldn't be quite as sensitive, but you get a much larger chip for approximately the same money (especially if you look at the used market). I would recommend a Canon DSLR simply because the user base of astrophotographers with Canon cameras is, I believe, larger than all the other brands combined. If you can afford something with Live Preview (or whatever Canon calls it) that will make focusing much easier. The DSLR will give you a much wider field of view with essentially the same spatial resolution. The major downside vs. the Meade DSI is a loss of red sensitivity in the DSLR. Plus, you won't be able to do emission line imaging with the DSLR. Obviously, neither camera is cooled so you will be limited in your exposure duration, but without autoguiding that is not likely to be a concern.

As has already been recommended, spend some time on the Beginning Imaging forum as there are lots of people who have been through what you are now going through.

If you want to look at a typical progression of images over time, you can see my gallery here. In particular, look at the Crab Nebula image (taken with a DSI Pro when I was just starting out), the older M51/Whirlpool (taken with an SBIG ST200XCM), and my newest M51. That will give you an idea of how your skills might progress. Like you, I have kids, so it has taken me two years to get to this point. I only manage to get out about once a month. You might do better if you can find more time.

Best of luck with your endeavors!

--------------------
- Jared Willson
  • Fluorostar FLT-110 w/ TEC optics
  • Vixen VC200L
  • Astro-Physics Mach1 GTO
  • Stellarvue SV80S
  • Takahashi Teegul SP Mount
  • STL-11000



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