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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Agnosticus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/12/04
Posts: 1000
Loc: Wisconsin
Favorite DS mag? new
      #2529036 - 07/19/08 08:38 PM

What is your favorite, most recommended deep sky observation magnification?

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Kevin
MN-76


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Jeff Lee
sage


Reged: 09/17/06
Posts: 359
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Agnosticus]
      #2529102 - 07/19/08 09:22 PM

I find that for globulars, Gal's, and some nebula that I end up using 60 or 100X most of the time.

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Jeff Lee
C90,C5,C8, 10 x 50's


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AlanK
super member


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 123
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Agnosticus]
      #2529113 - 07/19/08 09:30 PM

Thats a very tricky question as recommendation wise it depends on what is being looked at. For general views of large diffuse nebulae and star clusters 70-100x. For globulars however, something more in the range 150x - 300x to get maximum resolution while galaxies anywhere between 100 - 500x depending on the situation. For those tiny planetries, 600x to bring out the details if the seeing supports it.
Overall, the 7mm Nagler spends most time in my focuser which gives 292x in the 18 inch or 238x in the 12 inch so that would be my personal favorite.

I feel pretty miffed if the seeing doesn't allow at least 200x but fortunately, thats not too common at my main dark site.

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12.5 inch f5.4 reflector
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
Auckland NZ
5,905 deep sky objects incl 4,221 ngcs.


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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 1905
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Favorite DS mag? [Re: Agnosticus]
      #2529578 - 07/20/08 05:51 AM

Quote:

What is your favorite, most recommended deep sky observation magnification?




That depends entirely on which telescope I'm using. It's more meaningful to speak of magnification as X per inch of aperture than in absolute terms. 100X is too high for DSO viewing in my 70-mm scope and too low in my 12.5-incher.

As a rule of thumb, I favor about 15X per inch of aperture. Perhaps a bit higher on small scopes and a smidge lower on big ones. I frequently use 151X on my 12.5-inch Dob, but that's mostly out of laziness -- to give a wider field of view and nudge the scope less often. Nine times out of 10, 227X shows fainter objects and more detail than 151X. And for globular clusters and planetary nebulae, 305X is better still.

Of course, it's also fun to do low-power browsing at 5x per inch or lower. But you're bound to see less detail at these magnifications than at higher ones.

The most common mistake beginners make when observing DSOs is to use magnifications far below optimal.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs


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Agnosticus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/12/04
Posts: 1000
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #2529646 - 07/20/08 07:56 AM

Yeah, I purposely left it rather open-ended so I could see the variety of responses. Although, granted, Tony's suggestion of asking mag as X per inch of aperture would have been a better way to put it.

--------------------
Kevin
MN-76


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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2548
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Agnosticus]
      #2531220 - 07/21/08 01:12 AM

Quote:

What is your favorite, most recommended deep sky observation magnification?




Regardless of aperture, a 2 mm exit pupil.

Bill in Flag

--------------------
Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold

18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon

Cosmic Voyage




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sgottlieb
sage


Reged: 07/22/07
Posts: 232
Loc: SF Bay area
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: BillFerris]
      #2531277 - 07/21/08 03:23 AM

Quote:

Regardless of aperture, a 2 mm exit pupil.

Bill in Flag




I like this approach as it's easy to compute --
(eyepiece focal length)/(telescope f-ratio) and 2 mm generally works out fairly well.

If the seeing is good, though, for galaxies I'll look for detail using a 1.6 mm exit pupil and for smaller planetaries and globulars a 1 mm exit pupil (using my 18-inch Starmaster).

--------------------
Steve Gottlieb
18" f/4.3 Starmaster
Adventures In Deep Space - New article on MASH planetaries
7500+ NGC/IC Visual Descriptions
NGC/IC Project


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tatarjj
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Auburn, AL
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: sgottlieb]
      #2531528 - 07/21/08 09:49 AM

1-2 mm exit pupil for most galaxies, 3-4mm exit pupil for medium-sized objects, 7mm exit pupil for large nebulae.

Bascially, for any object, I typically like to magnify it till it spans ~5 degrees in the eyepiece, at which the benefit of magnifcation seems to drop off.

--------------------
John T.
Auburn, AL
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos

Edited by tatarjj (07/21/08 09:51 AM)


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Thomas_N
member


Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: tatarjj]
      #2531700 - 07/21/08 11:29 AM

5 Degrees? That isn't very much. Less than 1/10 of an average eyepiece field of view. Or is there a typo?

Thomas


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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 5706
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Thomas_N]
      #2531732 - 07/21/08 11:44 AM

An exit pupil range of 1.5mm to 2.5mm is what I generally prefer.

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.


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tatarjj
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Auburn, AL
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Thomas_N]
      #2531920 - 07/21/08 01:24 PM

Quote:

5 Degrees? That isn't very much. Less than 1/10 of an average eyepiece field of view. Or is there a typo?

Thomas




No. Increasing magnfication lowers the brightness of the image, making an object less visibile. At the same time, increasing magnifcaiton increases the apparent size of the object you are observing, making it more visible. The best magnification is dictated by where the magnitudes of these effects become equal. My own personal experience at the eyepiece, as well as my own independent analysis of the Blackwell data (a study on contrast thresholds from 1947 or 48), seems to indicate that the best magnification at which to view a specific object or detail in an object is the lowest magnifcation at which that object or detail spans AT LEAST ~5 degrees, and does not exceed a 7mm exit pupil. For big object such as NGC 7000, that's your lowest power, since even at like 20X, NGC 7000 is like 40 degrees across in the eyepiece. For a tiny object like a galaxy 2 billion light years away that spans 10", that could be as much as a 1mm exit pupil. Analysis of EXTRAPOLATIONS of the Blackwell data seems to indicate that exit pupils of even smaller than 1mm may be benefitual for very small objects, but I have yet to test this observationally.

Also, please note that this ~5 degree size is somewhat arbitary. It could be 5 deg + or - a degree or two. The optimal size could be as small as 2 degrees! More analysis is required to tell exactly where it is. Also, exactly where this optimal magnified size for a specific object may depend on other factors such as the observer, star background, etc.

A good example of the star background making the optimal magnified size larger is where you're trying to see an extremely faint object next to a star or group of stars. In adverted vision, your spatial resolution goes WAY down and it becomes hard to tell if you're seeing a smudge of an object or a smudge of a star if the star and object are close together. Pumping up the power an additional amount gives you enough separation to tell if you're seeing the star(s) or the object.

Edited by tatarjj (07/21/08 01:34 PM)


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Thomas_N
member


Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: tatarjj]
      #2531972 - 07/21/08 01:52 PM

Well, this is very interesting. But how do you observe M13 for example? According to your rule you need 15x (since M13 has appr. 1/3° Diameter). On a 10" F/5 scope the minimal mag. is ~ 30-40x giving more than 10 degrees. I find even that a little small in order to resolve the cluster. It doesn't hurt to magnify a lot more in my opinion. Of course with planetaries, 5° can be quite a lot...

Thomas


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tatarjj
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Auburn, AL
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Thomas_N]
      #2531991 - 07/21/08 01:57 PM

Quote:

Well, this is very interesting. But how do you observe M13 for example? According to your rule you need 15x (since M13 has appr. 1/3° Diameter). On a 10" F/5 scope the minimal mag. is ~ 30-40x giving more than 10 degrees. I find even that a little small in order to resolve the cluster. It doesn't hurt to magnify a lot more in my opinion. Of course with planetaries, 5° can be quite a lot...

Thomas




Oh no, that rule doesn't apply to stars or star clusters! The "rule" I stated earlier only applies to object that you cannot resolve stars in- galaxies, nebulae, very faint globular clusters. My bad- I ALWAYS forget to caveat that rule with the fact it only applies to unresolved objects...

The reason it doesn't apply to resolvable objects is because with a resolvable object like a globular, the ACTUAL detail you are looking for is tiny- a arcsecond across with good seeing. You're not looking to see the entire object as a whole, you're looking for individual stars. Secondly, individual stars do not have an angular size, so you can't really say what an optimal magnifcation is for them. There is probably a rule for individual stars, but I don't know it, and it's certainly very dependent on seeing.

Also note in that rule I stated, I said "an object or detail". This means, for example, if you want to see the spiral arms of M51, the optimal magnifcation for M51 ISN'T the lowest magnifcation with an exit pupil of 7mm or less at which it spans at least 5 degrees. Instead, the optimal magnifcation would be the magnification at which the width of the spiral arms spans 5 degrees. If you want to see individual star forming regions within the spiral arms, then the optimal magnification would be even higher. As I already said, since what your looking for in globular clusters is individual stars, which are tiny objects, then the optimal magnifation would be pretty high. More than that, the rule I stated previously cannot help you, because once again, stars are not extended objects.

As for bright globulars, The higher the magnfication you use, the better you will resolve a glob, up to a point of course, that point dicated by seeing, optics, optical alignment, etc. That point is probably somewhere around the tradditional rule for the highest usable power, the "60X per inch of aperture" rule. However, a more asthetically pleasing view may occur somewhat below the lowest power for maximum resolution. I'd say that I like to use anywhere between 10-20X per inch of aperture on globs- that's around 2mm exit pupil, plus or minus a half or so. So like 250X-500X at least in my 25". Of course, it also depends on the globular, so that rule for like 250X-500X is really just for ones like M13, M15, M3, etc.

Come to think of it, at least with really big scopes, the most athestically pleasing view of a globular may come at the highest magnification that frames the entire object, and wouldn't be dependent on exit pupil.


Edited by tatarjj (07/21/08 02:22 PM)


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galaxyman
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Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 1146
Loc: Limerick, Pa
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: Agnosticus]
      #2533350 - 07/22/08 12:14 AM

Quote:

What is your favorite, most recommended deep sky observation magnification?




Hmm, there really isn’t any favorite magnification or recommended exit pupil as best IMO.

Reason is all types of objects and the objects within those types are different.

For instance one galaxy may be best at 200x (seeing detail) in my 22”, while another galaxy may be best at 400x (seeing detail).

So it depends on the object themselves, not a given magnification or exit pupil.

I recommend giving the sky conditions, to push the power till that particular object looks best or most detail is seen. From there observe with that given eyepiece and be patient for moments of best seeing for detail to pop.



Karl
E.O.H.


Chesmont Astronomical Society
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB 8" F/9 Refractor(The Beast)
Astrozap 6" f/8 Refractor
Orion 4" f/6 Refractor

--------------------
So many galaxies, so little time!


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Alvin Huey
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Reged: 10/18/05
Posts: 1474
Loc: NorCal
Re: Favorite DS mag? new [Re: galaxyman]
      #2533957 - 07/22/08 11:37 AM

I like the exit pupil approach...and observing for 35+ years and didn't really think it that way. Looking back and notice that I'm riding between 230-575x most of the time with my 22", which is about 2.5 to 1mm exit pupil.

--------------------
Clear Skies,
Alvin #26
22" f/4.1 reflector, Takahashi TOA-130S on AP1200GTO, 30" f/4.3 StarMaster and Antares 6" f/6.5 on Orion SVP
FaintFuzzies | TAC | TAC-Sac


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