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Obx
member
Reged: 08/01/08
Posts: 68
Loc: Beautiful OBX
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Let me begin by saying that I am new to all this, even though I’m in my sixties. I kind of like the idea of viewing celestial objects through binoculars. All I have is a pair of 8 x 42 Celestron Ultimas (or is it Ultras?) that I bought about 10 years ago from Birds Unlimited, and which have served me well. I keep them clean and enjoy watching wildlife. They are very sharp with excellent eye relief. Well, not to bore you, but a few nights ago it being very clear outside I decided to take a look at the sky. The moon not being available, I thought to try something else. I had a very good view of Scorpius to the south and a sky chart (from the August, 1962 Issue of Sky & Telescope—but I don’t think too much changes), so I settled on searching for the cluster labled M4 near Antares. Absolutely nothing. I spent perhaps an hour amid all sorts of flying insects and saw nothing of it. Now, I live in the country (I can hear cows), but there is a smaller city about 8 miles away so I would hazard a guess that I am in a light-polluted area. Still, I thought I should be able to easily see M4 with binoculars. Am I wrong? I don’t need glasses to see distance and the focus seemed fine. It was very disappointing.
To those of you who have been around the block for a while, I apologize if this is a very stupid post.
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2695
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Hi Obx, and welcome to the forum!
M4 is not so easy if it's low in a less than perfect sky. I'm at 51 degrees north so it's always low, and I go several years without seeing it at all. What's your lattitude?
If your sky shows the Milky Way starclouds in Sagittarius (without optical aid), M4 should be visible.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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RichD
sage
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Well sorry you were disappointed! however M4 being a globular cluster is not really the best target for a pair of binoculars, and low power ones at that. If Scorpius was visible may i suggest you consult your charts and try for M6 and M7. These large open clusters are much more suited to your binos.
I hope you will be more impressed with these two!
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Clear skies
Rich
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RichD
sage
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Forgot to check your lattitude! i assumed like alot of the US you were fortunate enough to see all of Scorpius.
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Clear skies
Rich
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5311
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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M22 is an easier globular. M4 looks more like an open cluster.
A number of the Messier objects are a bit on the small side to see easily at 8x. But, an 8x42 is a fine instrument for looking at the vast star clouds in the Summer Milky Way.
Rich
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BobinKy
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Country road
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Obx--
Welcome to Cloudy Nights and welcome to the Binoculars forum. You post is not a stupid post and you do not owe anybody here an apology.
. . .
Last night I was able to see M4 with my Fujinon 7x50--it was a very small smudge below Antares. When I switched to my Fujinon 16x70 I saw a bigger smudge. I have read that you need a 8" scope to really appreciate the view.
Last night I also tried to observe M4 with my Swift Audubon 8.5x44. I do not know if it was my imagination or what. I would look through the eye cups and see a very small faint something, blink my eyes, and nothing was there.
. . .
Your problem with the Celesgtron Ultimas 8x42 may be that you do not collect enough light with the 42mm aperture. Another explanation may be the fact that M4 hangs low in the sky, a bad place to view under light polluted skies.
Maybe others can offer better explanations.
. . .
Once again, welcome to Cloudy Nights.
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Bob
38° Kentucky, USA
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Obx
member
Reged: 08/01/08
Posts: 68
Loc: Beautiful OBX
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I'm at about 43 N. I see virtually nothing of the Milky Way. I am able to observe the Andromeda Galaxy as a smudge through my binoculars. I told my wife that I want to view Uranus before I die, and she suggested that I either invest in larger binoculars or get a subscription to a newer astronomy magazine and look in there for a picture. She thinks she's such a card.
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Swift Sea Hawk 6x30
Westinghouse M3 6x30
Spencer Lens Mk 13 US Navy 7x50
Bausch & Lomb Mk 28 US Navy 7x50
National Instrument Mk 32 US Navy 7x50
Celestron Ultima 8x42
Orion Mini Giant 15x63
Meade 2045D S-C
Meteorites & Tektites
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
M22 is an easier globular. M4 looks more like an open cluster.
Rich
I would say M4 doesn't look anything like an open cluster. M4 is a very faint extended object more resembling a broad faint face on galaxy. It can be very difficult to see. very different looking than most all other globular clusters. M12 and M10 are condensed and bright by comparison. M3, M5 and M13 are extremely bright by comparison.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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BobinKy
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Country road
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Obx--
Binocular observing of the night sky is a wonderful way to spend the evening, especially during pleasant weather. However, binoculars do have their limits for some types of deep sky objects (DSOs), such as nebulae, globular clusters (e.g., M4), and small or distant planets in our solar system.
I usually recommend that folks use binoculars to study constellations, asterisms (unique star formations), and open star clusters. A good reference for asterisms and open star clusters is Star Clusters (Archinal & Hynes, 2003). An earlier text that is also quite good is Open and Globular Clusters (Webb Society, 1980).
However, it sounds as if you want to set your sights on the planet Uranus. Phil Harrington (2003, pp. 74-75), one of the regulars here in the Binoculars forum, said the following about viewing our solar system neighbor. "Uranus remains visible to the naked eye, although it never shines brighter than 6th magnitude, making it a tough catch even under the best circumstances. Uranus is fairly easy to spot through binoculars if you know exactly where to look. Although it appears only as a starry point, Uranus should still stand out from the crowd of background stars thanks to its unusual, greenish color.
Telscopes do a little better with Uranus, but even the greatest professional instruments show this distant world as a hazy, featureless disk. Annual finder charts for Uranus are published in the January issues of both Astronomy and Sky and Telescope magazines. Maps are also found in the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada's Observer's Handbook and Guy Ottewell's Astronomical Calendar. These star maps will prove indispensable when looking for this elusive planet."
I hope the above helps you achieve one of your lifetime goals.
. . .
References
Archinal, Brent A. & Steven J. Hynes (2003). Star Clusters. Richmond, VA: Willmann-Bell.
Harrington, Philip S. (2003). Star Watch: The Amateur Astronomer's Guide to Finding, Observing, and Learning about over 125 Celestrial Objects. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons.
Webb Society (1980). Webb Society Deep-Sky Observer's Handbook: Volume 3, Open and Globular Clusters. Hillside, NJ: Enslow Publishers.
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Bob
38° Kentucky, USA
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Mary
member
Reged: 01/29/08
Posts: 95
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Obx,
M4 is a VERY difficult object, even in the best of conditions for an experienced observer. Many objects are difficult for beginers with small binoculars. Start out with the easy stuff first and go from there when you get used to what certain celestial objects look like thru your binos.
What I would recomend first is to sweep the area around Cygnus. This is pure joy for a bino observer! From there you can wander to M13 in Hercules which will be easily visable in your binos. Also sweep the area around Sagittarius, you can see M8 the Lagoon easily with your binos.
Get a good binocular observing book and go and grow from there. One of my favorites is Binocular Highlights by Gary Seronik and Sky Publications. I love this book! I find myself pulling it out time and time again. Also check each issue of S&T (and online also) because there is always a column devoted to bino observing.
For Uranus, you will need a scope that is a least 4" to give you a decent view of Uranus. I was barely able to see it with my 5" reflector once and even then, it wasn't much to see, just an aqua dot!
Mary
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Obx
member
Reged: 08/01/08
Posts: 68
Loc: Beautiful OBX
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Thanks for all your advice. Seeing Uranus as a colored dot would be OK with me, because I'd know what it is. Viewing it is just kind of a quest I set up for myself. I guess it looks like I may have to invest in some new higher power binoculars after all. Methinks that means a lot of research.
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Swift Sea Hawk 6x30
Westinghouse M3 6x30
Spencer Lens Mk 13 US Navy 7x50
Bausch & Lomb Mk 28 US Navy 7x50
National Instrument Mk 32 US Navy 7x50
Celestron Ultima 8x42
Orion Mini Giant 15x63
Meade 2045D S-C
Meteorites & Tektites
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Protheus
Vaguely offended
Reged: 09/01/07
Posts: 4646
Loc: Illinois, US
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Perhaps you should try starting with easier objects? I caught M22 in binoculars the other night. Just looking around and happened to notice it.
Chris
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"To tread the sharp edge of a sword;
to run on smooth-frozen ice,
one needs no footsteps to follow..."
"Well, people sometimes ask me 'how did you get involved in astronomy?' I said 'I got born, what's your problem?'" -- John Dobson
"In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos, astronomers sometimes say that space is curved, or that the universe is finite but unbounded. Whatever are they talking about?" -- Carl Sagan
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RichD
sage
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Great advice Mary
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Clear skies
Rich
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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M4 is very difficult on 51°, sometimes just barely visible in a 10", let alone in a binocular.
Depens off course on your latitude. In Souther France it's quite an object in that same 10"...
Unfortunately i did not try in in 8x40 or 10x50 bino's because i did not had them available at the time...
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Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1811
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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M4 is definitely very sensitive to light pollution. Tonight I was out and m4 was easily visible in my 10x42mm binoculars but these were SQM 21.30 skies (6.5 mag) and I am at latitude 35° and the combination makes a big difference in terms of visibility. A few weeks ago when the first quarter moon was in the sky, m4 was completely invisible.
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RichD
sage
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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I'm at 51, and have only just caught M4 on good nights with a minimum of 16x70 and mag 5.5+ sky.
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Clear skies
Rich
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edcannon
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 679
Loc: Austin, Texas
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Quote:
I'm at about 43 N. I see virtually nothing of the Milky Way. I am able to observe the Andromeda Galaxy as a smudge through my binoculars. I told my wife that I want to view Uranus before I die, and she suggested that I either invest in larger binoculars ....
First, Uranus is completely different from star clusters. It should be pretty easy to see with your 8x42. I saw it easily last year.
M22, near the top of the "teapot" of Sagittarius, to me is brighter and easier than M4. M13 in Hercules is large and bright and is high in the sky.
I'll recommend here the Bright Star Atlas 2000 by Tirion and Skiff as a really good companion to use with small, handheld binoculars.
Your location doesn't sound bad, unless there's a big city a few miles beyond that small town 8 miles away.
One other thing to consider is that some nights are definitely better than others for seeing deep-sky objects. If the humidity is very high or there's dust or haze, the view won't be as easy or as good as a truly transparent night.
Larger binoculars is a very good idea for astronomy, but if you go too large you'll need to put them on a mount and tripod -- or else get an image-stabilized model. In either of those cases, you are facing a higher budget.
If possible, consider attending an astronomy club star party where you could check out some other sizes of binoculars.
A 10x42 binocular would give you a 25% (corrected from 20%!) gain in magnification with little or no gain in weight. (The field of view would be smaller.) With 10x50 you gain some light-gathering power with not too much weight gain. For many people, going above 10x, the view becomes too shakey. That's why it would be very good for you to try out other models if possible.
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Ed Cannon - Austin, Texas, USA
As of 23 August 2008 - Celestron Skymaster 12x60
Edited by edcannon (08/05/08 09:02 PM)
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PhilH
sage
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 233
Loc: Long Island, NY
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I can only echo everyone's advice here. M4 is a difficult object through binoculars for the reasons cited. It's central condensation is also weaker than some other globular clusters, which adds to the level of difficulty. M13 in Hercules should be much easier, provided you can find Hercules, of course. Look about 2/3rds of the way from Arcturus to Vega and you'll be in the right area.
You'll really need a chart to zero in on any of this stuff, however. That all-sky chart just won't cut it. I'll humbly recommend my freeware program Touring the Universe through Binoculars Atlas (TUBA, for short).
And I agree, don't go right to larger binoculars. Their heavier weight and small fields of view make hand-support very difficult. If you want to upgrade your 8x42s, consider a decent pair of 10x50s. They are pretty much the standard astro-binocular these days.
And remember, two eyes are better than one! 
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Phil Harrington
"Binocular Universe" Columnist, Astronomy magazine
Author: Star Ware || Star Watch || Touring the Universe through Binoculars || et al...
http://www.philharrington.net
http://www.observingsites.com
"Two eyes are better than one!"
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2096
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I would say M4 doesn't look anything like an open cluster. M4 is a very faint extended object more resembling a broad faint face on galaxy.
That all depends what instrument you're using. Considering that this is the Binocular Forum, your description is appropriate.
But at higher magnifications, through telescopes, M4 resolves quite easily into individual stars. More easily than any other globular cluster, from my latitude of 42N. M22 is a close second.
M4 is much less rich than most of the great globulars, like M22, M5, or M13. Still , I would never describe M4 as being like an open cluster. The brighter stars are too similar in magnitude, so once you can see a dozen easily, there are a hundred more lurking at the edge of visibility. M4 may be sparse for a globular, but it's far richer than even superrich open clusters like NGC 7789. And in most conditions, the visible stars are set against a hazy nebulous background of unresolved stars.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2096
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
M4 is a VERY difficult object, even in the best of conditions for an experienced observer.
No, I certainly wouldn't go that far. At latitude 42N, in dark skies, when the transparency is decent, M4 sticks out like a sore thumb through my 7x35 binoculars. I can't imagine even the rankest beginner having any trouble whatsoever in seeing it. In fact, its large size makes it one of the most prominent globular clusters through small binoculars when conditions are good. M5 or M13 can be mistaken for stars, but never M4.
But as other people have said, this object is quite sensitive to light pollution, northerly latitude, and haze. At this time of year, I'd finger haze as the most likely culprit for somebody having trouble seeing M4 from rural skies south of latitude 45N.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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