rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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I need an alt az design for a small refractor or reflector that works well, is easy to make, and whose design I can pass to others overseas or help them build it with their own local wood. This is an extension of the Uganda project only destined for other places too if anyone remembers those old posts.
After a long time searching for small inexpensive tripods, I found a few oldie wooden ones, but their weight capacity is limited. So, I have moved to look for alt az mount designs that I can assemble with basic/common nuts/bolts, and local wood that can handle at least 80mm refractors and perhaps 102s or up to a 4.5 inch reflector. The tripod becomes less important because in most mission places we go, I can find fence post or a tree stump or a pipe...something that will stand vertical. This is where a good design for a basic alt az arrangement comes in along with some kind of adapter that will fit on a variable vertical base (say up to 6 inches). This design DOES NOT have to look fancy; it does not have to operate as smooth as silk; it just has to work...and work again...and work again. The objective is to build it where we go and give it to the people who will have made it with us. I might have to bring the hardware and rope (if rope is used) but that is it. Then, from whatever local wood they have, we will make it and set the scope in it that we will take and leave with them. The wood might be ply, might not, might be rough cut.....it just has to work and have some sort of common cradle where the refractor will set and either be tied down, set in a compression fit, etc.
IF any of you have simple but elegant designs (ones that work and were easy to make) that might have features you think might be good for this application, then I would be glad to see some things to get some ideas.
I anticipate, unless the miraculous appearance of a cheap retractable tripod that is light and strong shows up, having to come up with a simple design for an alt az head that will fit on a vertical piece of anything in the country of choice is the way we will have to go. It will have to be a design adaptable to rough materials and common hardware that I will try in its first prototype. Then I will refine it and make 6 or so for starters in the next year. I have 3 4.5 inch reflectors and a couple small refractors to work with as the alt az design gets tested.
The only other option I have thought of is makeing precut pieces of wood for the same kind of design and then taking those plus the hardware...this makes the kit compact and light. Then I would assemble it on site, put in the scope, adapt it to whatever vertical piece they have, teach them how to use it and care for it, and leave it with them.
Who is innovative out there? I know there are some tinkerers that are great at this sort of thing. I don't want to invent anything that already works really good and would fit the bill. I will take pictures, designs, comments and ideas, material suggestions, etc. Send me a PM if you wish or answer this thread.
Even in Uganda, where we are taking a kit (we sent it via container with other stuff), such a design would become the children's project so they can make it themselves. When there are 400 or so kids in some of these village schools, it does not take long to wear out one tripod and one scope. Hence, we might even use it in places we have the ability to send a box of things ahead of time. Besides, when kids build something like this, it does things and they own its success.
Roland Beard
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NHRob
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 2557
Loc: New Hampshire
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What you are describing smacks of a dob design. This will work pretty well for a 4.5" reflector. Just need plywood, misc. hardware, and a few things like laminate and furniture glides (or teflon). A 80mm refractor wants something else, like a mount on a tripod. This is more involved. What do you think?
You'll also want some basic eyepieces too.
To keep it simple, I would say go for 4.5" dob/newts. They will really thrill the kids and aren't that hard to make. I don't have ready-made plans so I can't give you a quick solution but, I can be here to help.
Regards, Rob
-------------------- Canon 12x36 IS binos
AP130EDT f/8 (for sale)
new 12.5" f/6 Royce conical mirror (for sale)
no free time ... lots of clouds !
" Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" !!
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Maybe something like this? Instead of the tripod I'd make a base plate that has multiple holes so you can lag screw it down into your fence post, 4x4, etc.
-------------------- 10" XTi
C6 SE
ETX 125 (no more)
SV 102ED
SV80ED
PortaMount (no more)
SV M1
Original AYO EzTouch mount
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scout72
sage
   
Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 222
Loc: SF Bay Area
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I realize this is outside the original topic, but is there anywhere that you can buy a mount like that pre-made? I really like the idea, but don't have the time or tools to make one...
-------------------- Scout72 is my 1972 International Scout 4x4
Some Scopes, Some Binocs, and Some Mounts,
and a much shorter signature
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Not that I'm aware of. This is a pic of a DIY mount someone made. I kept a copy because I was more interested in how he made the tripod spreader bar.
This really doesn't appear to be all that difficult. A local woodworkers shop should be able to duplicate it fairly easily.
-------------------- 10" XTi
C6 SE
ETX 125 (no more)
SV 102ED
SV80ED
PortaMount (no more)
SV M1
Original AYO EzTouch mount
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Thanks for the replies. Yes, it does appear that I am leaning toward a design that sounds like a Dob design. Yes, the pictures of the alt-az mount are in the ballpark. The million dollar answers that I am working toward go the next steps...some real idea about shape, materials, how to assemble easily with rough materials...something easily adaptable to apertures that might be a bit different but still hold the thing well...something where an added stone or piece of wood at one location can balance the whole thing easily. So rules of thumb to follow, some more pictures of some simple designs (especially if they are rough made but work. I can experiment some, but I am trying to know enough ahead of time to avoid the bad choices and make the right ones. The key elements will be a cradle with variable design but the right elements, a simple simple simple way to attach the scope or strap it securely, a way to add weight to balance easily, and an adapatable piece that can securely attach the assembly to a post of variable diameter. Any more ideas, pictures, suggestions out there?
Roland
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Joe Cipriano
Entropy Personified
   
Reged: 09/03/05
Posts: 3830
Loc: Uh... anyone have a GPS?
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Roland:
Chris B aka Chriske is posting a number of DIY mount drawings in the ATM forum - just look for the threads titled "DIY Mount - mount type". He should have over a dozen posted within the next few days, and 20 or so when he's finished. All can be pretty much made with common power tools (so you generally won't need access to a metal lathe or mill). Find one you like, and post any questions you have to that thread - you'll get plenty of help, I'm sure.
HTH
-------------------- In the Land of Eternal Light Pollution & Great Pizza (Chicago)
SN-6, ED80, WO 66SD
Meade 208xt, SBIG ST-4
D70 (modified)
CGE (way modified)
A Wife who understands (unmodified)
Some other stuff...
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
Douglas Adams
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Well for starters you can handle the counterweight issue by extending the front of the mount like this. You may want to look at this webpage:
http://members.leapmail.net/~ericj/refractordobmounts.html
-------------------- 10" XTi
C6 SE
ETX 125 (no more)
SV 102ED
SV80ED
PortaMount (no more)
SV M1
Original AYO EzTouch mount
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Just a couple of more thoughts of the top of my head.
As you can see from the pics, plastic PVC pipe fitting seem to be the material of choice for the alt. bearing. Makes sense-smooth surface, relatively resistant to dings (at least compared to softwoods), cheap. However maybe hard to get in the places you describe. Some more information concerning readily available materials and methods of woodworking in the places you go to would be very helpful. I'm assuming no power tools but what about planes, sandpaper, drills, etc.? Without these, you're probably going to have to make the critical parts of the kits here (like the bearing surfaces) and bring them with/send them ahead). Local hardwoods would probably work for the bearings but you'd have to have a way to shape them.
The problem of a variable cradle to hold the OTA is an interesting one. I wouldn't trust bunge cords long-term since they stretch out over time. And failure here could ruin their equipment. Leather straps may work as that would provide some grip on the OTA, but you'd need an infinitely adjustable buckle similar to web strapping found on back packs. Not like a belt buckle. Another idea is a wooden cradle similar to the old Purtian stockades. But instead of using a hinge and a pin to secure it, I'd be inclined to use 2 threaded rods, one at each end. The cradle would need some type of material lining the edges in contact with the OTA that provides grip and "give" so that it conforms to the OTA. Sponge, sorbothane?
Wish I had time to work on it. An interesting exercise.
-------------------- 10" XTi
C6 SE
ETX 125 (no more)
SV 102ED
SV80ED
PortaMount (no more)
SV M1
Original AYO EzTouch mount
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Ah, good ideas and thinking again...and I will check the ATM forum. The threaded rod idea with a stockade type clamp is a good thought. I will keep looking at the comments and check the other forum...gather the ideas together and sift through them in a couple weeks. Thanks responders for the thinking. Roland
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mathteacher
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 05/13/07
Posts: 1045
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Have you looked into pipe mounts?
-------------------- Regards, Mr. Wang
CR 150-HD - Gordie, Vixen ED100sf - Schipperke, Orion ST80 - The Pug, Orion 7x50 Scenix
Meade DSI Color
Vixen Porta Mount, Super Polaris, 2" pipe mount
Please join the International Dark Sky Association
My CN gallery
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Tell me what you mean and where to look ?? Roland
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mathteacher
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 05/13/07
Posts: 1045
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Here: Altaz mount http://home.earthlink.net/~haggisizing/astro/alt-az-pipe.htm
Lots of Equatorial mounts for reference, easy to adapt to altaz http://www.copperwood.com/telescopes/scopegallery.htm
A CN post:
reflector altaz
If you google "pipe mount telescope" you can see more examples. Good luck to you.
-------------------- Regards, Mr. Wang
CR 150-HD - Gordie, Vixen ED100sf - Schipperke, Orion ST80 - The Pug, Orion 7x50 Scenix
Meade DSI Color
Vixen Porta Mount, Super Polaris, 2" pipe mount
Please join the International Dark Sky Association
My CN gallery
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Roland,
I think I'd use closed cell weatherstripping for the cushioning material on the cradle. Adhesive backed on one side and soft, cheap, and obviously made to resist the elements. I've seen them up to 1" thick which should be plenty. One issue will be the curve of the cradle. I'm assuming you're thinking of small 66-80mm refractors or small reflectors. Refractors are probably better because of collimation issues. I'm guessing a curve that's a compromise better a perfect fit on a 66 or 80 will work with an 1" of padding.
You mention a pier type mounting. Circular or square; 4-6" diameter; wood, metal, or plastic?
-------------------- 10" XTi
C6 SE
ETX 125 (no more)
SV 102ED
SV80ED
PortaMount (no more)
SV M1
Original AYO EzTouch mount
Edited by DennisF (08/04/08 11:52 PM)
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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When we go to Uganda, for instance, we will be in an observing area that is chosen because there is something vertical. Might be a tree stump, might be anything, or we might dig a hole and put something in. Whenf we were in Haiti...same thing...you cannot assume it will be one thing or another, except to reasonably expect it to be 4 inches or so less in diameter. So what I design for adaptation would be adaptable/fastenable. The only idea I have had is like a christmas tree stand, where 3 threaded inserts press against a center shaft. Of course, that piece still has to marry to whatever is on top that holds a cradle. I figure if I can come up with a fundamentally simple but adaptable design, then it's a matter of adapting size/hardware to the location we will go, but keep the same design.
Roland
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Thanks. Looked at the sites. The pipe mount might be workable with PVC. Galvanized pipe and metal things like that might be hard to get to too tempting to scavange in places where we will go. Will add the thoughts as I proceed. Roland
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DennisF
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Northern IL
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Quote:
...The only idea I have had is like a christmas tree stand, where 3 threaded inserts press against a center shaft. ...
I'd go with 4. That way if your post is 4 sided wood, you'll have one attachment point on every side. If circular it just gives you one more attachment point.
This is a pretty "off the top of my head" idea and I'm not sure it would be strong enough, but it'd be easy enough to make one up and find out. How about using a 3 lb. coffee can to slip over the pier? Using washers on the inside and outside of the can's sides and sandwiched between some bolts, a threaded rod may do the trick. The sides of the can should be thin enough that they will bend a little to conform to the washers. The washers should distribute the load more against the relatively thin sides of the can. A pair of nuts tighted against each other would allow a wrench to turn the threaded rod into the wood.
You can use a 1" piece of wood on the inside of the can's bottom (which is actually the top of the pier adapter) to firm up the bottom and have a carriage bolt through the center. Another wood plate on top and outside of the can with a plastic washer and you can bolt your mount to it. Both wooden plates should be shaped to the diameter of the can. Hope this is clear.
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rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Another concept that has been discussed on the DIY forum I am repeating here in a summary fashion for those reading:
Using two posts or two 3-legged branches/wood pieces to form two "stands", a doubled piece of wood or a rectangular frame can go between them that will "embrace" a small refractor or reflector. The refractor/reflector would be held in place by bolts or (even simpler) rope that encircles the tube and goes through notches on the wood frame around it. The rope is simply tightened by twisting the ends and securinng. This concept requires no hardware, notched wood, some weights under the end tripods, and that is about it. It is truthfully minimalist but also has attributes to be held in place very well by rope that is tightened/secured.
I can see from the discussions/suggestions on the DIY forum and this one that perhaps two designs may be relevant. The suggestions at this location use a little more hardware and are a bit more traditional but probably are a little smoother. The other design (as explained above) is rougher but probably works. I think I am ready to think about all this and try some things. Anyone else interested in giving it a whack to see what happens? An old tube (even cardboard) that is weighted will act as the sacrificial "scope" so a person does not have to threaten a real one during prototyping.
This is getting to be a fascinating problem/solution set. I am somewhat excited, beccause of you saw what we have seen in Haiti and Uganda, the conditions drive what you can do. And, it appears, with a tube on hand, there may be ways to make this work!!
If someone else is interested in the summer/fall is trying somethings, let me know. Perhaps we can pool pictures and show folks what can be done...it might be helpful for anyone else with similar requirements.
I am well aware of this: the proof is in the pudding. Somethings that do not work or work well will not be apparent until we actually cook something up.
Roland
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