Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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After sitting in wildfire woodsmoke here in northeastern Calf for the last four weeks, I decided to go to the clear skies of central Nevada. Spent 5 nights of absolutely dark and transparent skies (est. mag 7+). SQM readings were consistently 21.85-21.9. These are world class skies for observing....there's plenty of good quality astronomy available in the west in spite of the best efforts of developers. 
Hint: the quality of the night skies is inversely proportional to the number of bars on your cell phone.
This was a chance to try out my BT100 binoculars with 24 Pan eyepieces (25x) and 14mm Denks(43x) to best effect. Also had my 5.5 inch refractor and new 13mm Ethos eyepiece (62x) for MW sweeping.
Here is a challenge for you...Pal 5 in Serpens Caput. This is a very faint globular cluster about 5 minutes across according to NSOG. Its visual magnitude is listed as 11.8 so it is one of the faintest objects I examined with my binoculars and was swept up by moving the field and using averted vision. Once spotted, however, it was seen with direct vision.
The surface brightness of Pal 5 is definitely fainter than the other challenge....NGC6822 (Barnard's Galaxy) located in Sagittarius and is much larger than Pal 5 at about 15x14 arc minutes. Its listed as mag 8.8, but remember that is integrated so the light spread out over the extended object is very low surface brightness.
Binoculars under these conditions can do marvelous duty on Milky Way large scale structure and in some respects do a better job than a telescope for revealing the lowest contrast extended objects, including most all the Sharpless nebulae listed on the Sky Atlas charts. Also, many more dark nebulae than listed are seen while sweeping through the MW starfields.
This, by the way, was without using filters, although the UHC did help in some instances as when viewing the entire Veil in the 5.5 inch and 40mm ep (20x.)
Going back in October for some of the fall-winter MW. Can't wait.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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NGC6144
member
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 47
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
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Palomar 5 is a tough one, not only is it tough to see because of low magnitude but it is very dispersed, with low surface brightness.
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Orion Skyquest XT10i w/telrad
21mm Hyperion
8mm hyperion
Messier objects observed this year:65
caldwell objects observed this year:10
Herschel 400 objects this year: 9
Edited by desertstars (08/06/08 04:59 PM)
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Opps....senior moment... just noticed I mislabled the thread. Obviously, should read...
"Bagged Pal 5 with BT100s..."
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
Edited by desertstars (08/06/08 05:00 PM)
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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In spite of the "senior moment"--a nice accomplishment with binoculars! I still haven't seen Pal 5 with any of my telescopes. 
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
Edited by desertstars (08/06/08 05:00 PM)
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30019
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Opps....senior moment... just noticed I mislabled the thread. Obviously, should read...
"Bagged Pal 5 with BT100s..."
You did?
Short thread and a slow day in the lab... 
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." Professor Irwin Corey
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
Opps....senior moment... just noticed I mislabled the thread. Obviously, should read...
"Bagged Pal 5 with BT100s..."
You did?
Absolutely....no problems,mate
OBTW, thanks to moderator for changing thread title.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
Edited by Mr. Bill (08/06/08 06:08 PM)
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2582
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Hi Bill,
With M5 only 2.3 degrees to the south, did you try placing both in the same field of view for a comparison?
Bill in Flag
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Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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sgottlieb
sage
Reged: 07/22/07
Posts: 243
Loc: SF Bay area
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Quote:
Here is a challenge for you...Pal 5 in Serpens Caput. This is a very faint globular cluster about 5 minutes across according to NSOG. Its visual magnitude is listed as 11.8 so it is one of the faintest objects I examined with my binoculars and was swept up by moving the field and using averted vision. Once spotted, however, it was seen with direct vision.
Bill, picking up Pal 5 in your 4-inch binoculars is an amazing observation as I don't recall running across an observation in less than a 14-inch or 16-inch scope. In my 18-inch Starmaster it's far from an easy object in Lassen-class skies (mid to high 21.x SQM). Here's my observation from last year's GSSP at Bumpass Hell parking lot...
18" (7/14/07): the best view of this low surface brightness globular was at 225x. Appeared as a very faint, round glow, ~3' diameter and involving a mag 13.5 star. Could barely hold continuously with averted vision, though the surface brightness is very low and even with no central condensation. The mag 13 star is offset to the west side of the glow and a mag 15 star 1' due east is also superimposed or possibly a resolved member. Located 2.3° NNW of M5 and 30' south of 4 Serpentis (V = 5.6).
As far as Barnard's galaxy (recent thread here), from the same location, I don't find NGC 6822 difficult in my 80mm finder at 25x as a faint, elongated glow and I've even glimpsed it in my handheld 15x50 IS binoculars.
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Steve Gottlieb
18" f/4.3 Starmaster
Adventures In Deep Space - New article on MASH planetaries
7500+ NGC/IC Visual Descriptions
NGC/IC Project
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Hi Bill
didn't want to compromise my dark adaptation....
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Hi Bill,
With M5 only 2.3 degrees to the south, did you try placing both in the same field of view for a comparison?
Bill in Flag
You meant north, right? Looking in the Uranometria, I notice a galaxy (U9792) in the same area as Pal 5....I wonder if that is what I saw. I'm only using a Telrad for location.
Interesting that Pal 5 is listed in NSOG but is not shown on the Uranometria chart.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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sgottlieb
sage
Reged: 07/22/07
Posts: 243
Loc: SF Bay area
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Quote:
You meant north, right? Looking in the Uranometria, I notice a galaxy (U9792) in the same area as Pal 5....I wonder if that is what I saw. I'm only using a Telrad for location.
Interesting that Pal 5 is listed in NSOG but is not shown on the Uranometria chart.
Pal 5 was incorrectly listed as a dwarf galaxy in the UGC and other galaxy catalogues based simply on its appearance on the POSS (UGC called it a "resolved dwarf"). So, Pal 5 and UGC 9792 are the same object
Apparently, the first edition of the Uranometria didn't catch this mistake, although the second edition plots it as Pal 5. Here's another 18-inch observation by Les Dalrymple from a dark site in Australia (I only resolved one mag 15 star) --
"This is still a fairly elusive cluster even in this aperture. Quite faint still, it is found generally NW of a mag 10 * which is in the SE borders of the cluster as a collection of several very faint resolved points about mag 15 down with background haze extending out to about 5' diameter total that is pretty weak and of lowish SB. Little evidence of any central concentration."
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Steve Gottlieb
18" f/4.3 Starmaster
Adventures In Deep Space - New article on MASH planetaries
7500+ NGC/IC Visual Descriptions
NGC/IC Project
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LumpyDarkness
sage
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 311
Loc: San Francisco bay area
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Quote:
Quite faint <snip> a collection of several very faint resolved points about mag 15 down with background haze
That description fits well with the view I had through a 17.5" f/4.5 Dob at 8200 feet elevation on Mount Lassen one week ago.
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Mark Wagner
18" f/4.5 Dob
The Astronomy Connection: Observing Reports - updated 12/1/08
Adventures In Deep Space: updated 12/1/08
Join us in June at California's Golden State Star Party
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
You meant north, right? Looking in the Uranometria, I notice a galaxy (U9792) in the same area as Pal 5....I wonder if that is what I saw. I'm only using a Telrad for location.
Interesting that Pal 5 is listed in NSOG but is not shown on the Uranometria chart.
Pal 5 was incorrectly listed as a dwarf galaxy in the UGC and other galaxy catalogues based simply on its appearance on the POSS (UGC called it a "resolved dwarf"). So, Pal 5 and UGC 9792 are the same object
Apparently, the first edition of the Uranometria didn't catch this mistake, although the second edition plots it as Pal 5.
Thanks for the info....that explains that little mystery.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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I'm picking up some polite skepticism as to the truth of my thread title....a few points
Detection of an object and resolving structure are two completely different things...
Individual differences in the ability to detect extremely faint objects is obvious to me as I have many times swept up and found objects that even when positioned in the middle of the fov other experienced visual astronomers I was observing with couldn't see.
Viewing with binoculars increases contrast at least 40% by the fact that it tends to cancel out individual eye defects and information theory states the signal to noise ratio improves as the square root of the summation of detectors, in this case eyes.
I've been in this game long enough to know the difference between barely glimpsed averted vision and averted imagination.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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LumpyDarkness
sage
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 311
Loc: San Francisco bay area
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Quote:
I'm picking up some polite skepticism as to the truth of my thread title....
I believe you feel you saw it. I've had lots of my observations questioned, but when I know what I saw, I stick to my belief. I'd be interested in trying it in your binos at GSSP next year. If I detect it in your binos, I many get rid of my 18" Dob!
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Mark Wagner
18" f/4.5 Dob
The Astronomy Connection: Observing Reports - updated 12/1/08
Adventures In Deep Space: updated 12/1/08
Join us in June at California's Golden State Star Party
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm picking up some polite skepticism as to the truth of my thread title....
I believe you feel you saw it. I've had lots of my observations questioned, but when I know what I saw, I stick to my belief. I'd be interested in trying it in your binos at GSSP next year. If I detect it in your binos, I many get rid of my 18" Dob!
Hi Mark...
Next year you may be looking through my new Vixen 125mm binos with 1 1/4 interchangable eyepieces if I decide to pull the trigger on buying.
I have been extremely impressed with the BT100s after selling the 6 inch Fujinons last year. The 24 Panoptic eyepieces have really turned them into workhorses for sweeping up faint targets.
The 140mm Vixen Petzvel is a wonderful MW sweeper and the 13mm Ethos seems to be a sweet spot in magnification/fov at 62x with a 1.6 degree fov.
The two side by side make a great observing team....
Yeah, that'll be the day when you trade in your big Dob for binoculars.
--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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LumpyDarkness
sage
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 311
Loc: San Francisco bay area
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Quote:
Yeah, that'll be the day when you trade in your big Dob for binoculars.
LOL! I have a 100mm Miyauchi here, under my desk...
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Mark Wagner
18" f/4.5 Dob
The Astronomy Connection: Observing Reports - updated 12/1/08
Adventures In Deep Space: updated 12/1/08
Join us in June at California's Golden State Star Party
|
Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, that'll be the day when you trade in your big Dob for binoculars.
LOL! I have a 100mm Miyauchi here, under my desk...
That ain't too shabby....
--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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