Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning Imaging

Pages: 1
zAmbonii
sage


Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Ypsilanti, MI
Sometimes I really feel so stupid...
      #2562125 - 08/05/08 03:45 PM

I am way too much of an impulsive person. I tend to take up hobbies/things and just run with them...sometimes without knowing the simple basics that will help me out in the long run.

I have learned a heck of a lot of things in the past couple of months since I started this astrophotography thing, I did drill down and learn the basics about scopes and equipment when I decided to buy, but I am constantly coming up short in the basics department when dealing with processing of images.

Typically something doesnt come out right, I obsess over why for way too long, and then I have a forehead slapping moment where I realize...OMG YOU ARE SO STUPID about something basic that explains everything. I tend to read what everyone does, try to replicate what they do...but without knowing WHY they do so and the basics on what makes those things work.

For example: When doing some stacking and processing of light images, I was trying to figure out how I could process images from two different imaging sessions. I was making things seem more complicated than they were. When someone mentioned how to do it, I said to myself "that cant work, I took subs 30 sec one day and 1 min another....that shouldnt work!." The headslapping moment came when I finally realized that when images are stacked...each pixel value is ADDED to the a stack (of course some methods are used to discard wayward pixel values). For some unknown reason, when I saw the words "median combine" or "sigma median" my brain thought that the final stack was an average of all the pixel values for an image.

Fast forward to the last couple of nights...I was reprocessing some of my images, this time using DSS instead of Iris, and the final images I was getting out of DSS weren't quite right. When I started to do gradient removal and stretching, there was a hole in the middle of my images. It was missing the red there. Thought it had to do with my flats....I did underexpose my flats, but it shouldnt have been that much of a problem. I tried several different ways of processing the stack in DSS (at about 30min a pop in processing time) only to get the same results.

Then came the forehead slapping moment.

I was clipping the red channel because it was running out of the 16 bit color space. The 75 sub stack I was processing I guess caused an overflow in the red and that data just got thrown out. It didnt help because I also realized that the problem was exacerbated by the color adjustment parameters in the DSS settings were multiplying the red values by nearly 2.

For some unknown reason I forgot how things were stacked to begin with, and that....yes you can run out of color space in a 16 bit image. I never really figured this out before mainly because 1) I thought that the 16-bit color space was large enough that I could basically stack an infinite number of subs without overflow and 2) I sort of avoided this previously by using iris. In iris, I would usually process a stack, do a gradient removal, set black point, and then do color adjustment....I just wouldn't run into the 16bit barrier this way.

Now so many other things that people on the forums say here makes sense. About limiting exposure times so the histogram on the camera isn't too far right, and the loss of dynamic range if you did get things too far right. I never heeded this advice mainly because I thought I would never run out of dynamic range in the final stacked photos.

Stupid me.

Now I wonder what my next forehead slapping moment will be.

--------------------
Celestron C6-N 150mm f/5 Newtonian
Celestron CG-4 mount
Canon 300D unmodded
Meade 70AZ-Z + Philips SPC900NC for autoguiding


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
diggy
sage


Reged: 05/09/04
Posts: 288
Loc: Vancouver Island, Canada
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: zAmbonii]
      #2562177 - 08/05/08 04:18 PM

hey zAmboni...don't be so hard on yourself this AP stuff is HARD! I'm having those little ah-ha moments all the time; for me that's the joy of the thing...I get excited cause I've finally understood something, then can't wait to get back out there and try it. Remember, it's the journey as much as the destination. But I'm sure you've heard all this before

Diggy

--------------------
WO 110mm Megrez doublet on an HEQ-5 mount
Nikon 10x50 binocs
"Beyond here be there"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DaemonGPF
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: New Mexico
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: diggy]
      #2562747 - 08/05/08 09:03 PM

Yeah, here's what I call a stupid moment:

Friday night, I couldn't figure out why my mount wasn't tracking my target after doing what I considered to be a very accurate alignment job, my autoguiding wasn't working, and everything was drifting right out of view quickly..

I decided to pack it up for the night out of frustration. I turned on the patio light to pack everything up, and as I was setting my mount back to home position and removing the OTAs, I realized my TEC power cord from my autoguider had found it's way in the groove on the RA head and had jammed itself in there really well, apparently sometime during alignment, thus slowing down the mount significantly. I wasted a perfectly clear evening because I failed to check the simple things.. I fealt increadibly dumb.

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My Messier Project Gallery


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
zAmbonii
sage


Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Ypsilanti, MI
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2562896 - 08/05/08 10:13 PM

Heh...something similar happened to me last time out. I was "remotely" testing autoguiding. I was inside connected via remote desktop to my laptop at the scope. Noticed RA wasn't moving the way it should. Ran outside and the RA cable worked itself between the motor and the RA release knob.

Tonight looks like a total wash. It is really soupy outside, but CSC and satellite looked like it was going to be relatively clear. Around quarter till 9 (with scope still inside), on a whim I checked heavens above. and it showed the ISS was going to be peaking at 89 degrees at 9:30. Rushed everything outside to see if I could capture and...

rut ro...clouds building to the north...they will surely go towards the east right? Was going to try a quick focus on polaris, but those clouds were blocking it. Got a rough focus on jupiter, and then big old cloud passes right over at the time the ISS should been passing over. I'm still waiting on the intermittent clouds to clear to do some more testing with the autoguiding. blech.

--------------------
Celestron C6-N 150mm f/5 Newtonian
Celestron CG-4 mount
Canon 300D unmodded
Meade 70AZ-Z + Philips SPC900NC for autoguiding


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jared
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/11/05
Posts: 1871
Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2564470 - 08/06/08 05:16 PM

Quote:

Yeah, here's what I call a stupid moment:

Friday night, I couldn't figure out why my mount wasn't tracking my target after doing what I considered to be a very accurate alignment job, my autoguiding wasn't working, and everything was drifting right out of view quickly..

I decided to pack it up for the night out of frustration. I turned on the patio light to pack everything up, and as I was setting my mount back to home position and removing the OTAs, I realized my TEC power cord from my autoguider had found it's way in the groove on the RA head and had jammed itself in there really well, apparently sometime during alignment, thus slowing down the mount significantly. I wasted a perfectly clear evening because I failed to check the simple things.. I fealt increadibly dumb.




Don't worry, I spent almost 1.5 hours the other night at a public star party, no less trying to calibrate my auotoguider. I couldn't get it to take. I tried every software setting there was--choosing different guide stars, adjusting gain, changing exposure settings. Nothing worked. Every time I turned on the calibration routine I would get a failure. It was almost as if the mount wasn't responding to guide commands at all. It slewed fine manually or when using goto, but it wouldn't nudge at all when the computer sent a guide request. In desperation I gave up and just shot unguided exposures.

When I was packing things up a few hours later I finally figured out what the problem was. I hadn't plugged the camera into the autoguider port. In fact, I hadn't even taken the cable out of the box. No wonder the auotoguider couldn't run the mount--it wasn't connected to the mount at all!

By the way, zAmbonii... Not to put a crimp in your style, but the various average combine methods really DO average the pixel values together. Adding pixels--unless your software is capable of using floating point arithmetic like Maxim DL and some others--is generally not a good idea since you will quickly run out of dynamic range. Some software packages will normalize the images before performing a median combine on them, though, so you can still work with different exposure levels in the subs. Unlike median combine methods, averaging isn't thrown off much by having different exposure values in different subexposures. It will still increase the S/N ratio (though there is some risk that the shorter exposures will introduce more noise than simply averaging the longer exposures if you have a really large disparity in exposure durations).

--------------------
- Jared Willson
  • Fluorostar FLT-110 w/ TEC optics
  • Vixen VC200L
  • Astro-Physics Mach1 GTO
  • Stellarvue SV80S
  • Takahashi Teegul SP Mount
  • STL-11000



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
fradog23
super member


Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 198
Loc: mt. pleasant, SC
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: Jared]
      #2565674 - 08/07/08 08:01 AM

dont worry, we all have those kinda moments. the other night while i was trying to image for the first time, everything was going well with my Atlas, then all of a sudden my go to and tracking went way off. couldnt for the life of me figure out why. started over from the begining. same thing. took a second or too more and realized the declination lock wasnt tight so in some positions it was slipping.

--------------------

Orion XT8
Orion 80mm ED
Atlas EQ-G
Canon XSi
Messier hunter - 39/110
http://fradog23.zenfolio.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
imjeffp
Senior Space Cadet
*****

Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4422
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
Re: Sometimes I really feel so stupid... new [Re: fradog23]
      #2566466 - 08/07/08 03:27 PM

Then there was the night when I couldn't figure out why my electric focuser wasn't focusing the finder scope...

--------------------
Blog
ST80 • AT80EDT/LXD650
ETX-90/DS-2000 • 10" LX200 Classic ("The Quarter-Meter Telescope at the Heritage Park Observatory")
SPC900NC • DMK21AF04 • Digital Rebel XT


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Extra information
13 registered and 8 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 237

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics