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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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NerfMonkey
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Reged: 06/12/08
Posts: 188
Loc: NE Ohio
Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new
      #2560468 - 08/04/08 09:11 PM

I've got a question about eyepieces. I have used plössls exclusively so far and while the views are nice and sharp I'd like to have a wider field of view. I have a decent understanding of true vs. apparent field and the relationship between them.

The problem is that I'm using a 1500mm f/4.9 scope so getting anywhere below 45x will require a 35+mm eyepiece, and right now the biggest true field I can achieve is 1° with a 32mm plössl. To get 2° at around 30x would require a 50mm eyepiece with a 60° apparent field, and 3° would obviously require an even wider field. I was considering the Stratus eyepieces from Orion because they're not ridiculously expensive and I've heard good things about them but the longest focal length in the series is 24mm, giving me 62.5x and 1.1°, hardly a step up from my current set of eyepieces.

There's also the issue of coma with such a fast scope and a wide field.

It would probably be ridiculously expensive or impossible to get a very long FL eyepiece with a wide apparent field but that's what I need in order to get a wide true field with my scope, according to my understanding. I'd like to keep the large aperture, and buying a high quality refractor would of course be expensive too, so am I pretty much screwed? Please be blunt.

Oh, I also read the eyepiece buyer's guide in the pinned thread in this forum and discovered the SWAN eyepieces, which are relatively inexpensive and would give me a nice wide true field and apparent field; in particular the 2" 40mm which would give me 37.5x, a 72° AFOV and a 1.9° TFOV. I'd still probably need some form of coma correction though.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

--------------------
Mike
71 Messiers
149 total DSOs
6 planets


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walt r
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/13/07
Posts: 2394
Loc: Doylestown, PA
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2560521 - 08/04/08 09:35 PM

There are a few other things to consider.
1) exit pupil.
2) % illumination of the FOV which is also called vignetting and is due to a too small secondary.

Check TeleVue's "Choosing Eyepieces" article for more info.

--------------------
Walt

Obsession 18" f/4.45 #1370 AN/SC
MK67 Deluxe 6" f/12 Mak-Cass, Super Polaris GEM, JMI MicroMax DSC
DIY 60mm f/6 Achromat
Cookbook 245 CCD


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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6140
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2560529 - 08/04/08 09:38 PM

Mike,

The best that you're going to be able to do with a fast Newtonian without exceeding a 7mm exit pupil, assuming that your pupils dilate that much, and without noticeable eyepiece astigmatism (mirror coma is another matter) is a 31mm Tele Vue Nagler type 5 or a 35mm Tele Vue Panoptic. There are cheaper but less effective alternatives, of course.

If you're willing to trade some aperture for a bit larger TFOV, a 40mm widefield like the 40mm TMB Paragon might be the ticket.

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.


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NerfMonkey
super member


Reged: 06/12/08
Posts: 188
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: walt r]
      #2560556 - 08/04/08 09:49 PM

Here's what the William Optics website says about the 40mm SWAN:

• Internally fully blackened (lens edges and internal spacers).
• No flaring or ghosting on high-contrast objects.
• Parfocal.

What's the advantage of blackened edges? Fewer reflections?

The 40mm SWAN would give an exit pupil of 8.1mm which is a little too large from what I've read. Would it be a terrible idea to use an eyepiece with that big of an exit pupil (would the image be "missing" the parts not hitting my pupil or just be dimmed slightly)?

EDIT: Dave, thanks for your input. The Naglers are pretty well out of my price range right now. I'm thinking once I have a steady source of income a smaller Dob in the range of 6-8" would be nice. The slower f/ ratio would let me use the wider field eyepieces, the shorter focal length would make it easier to use lower magnifications and I'd still have a decent amount of aperture; the smaller size would also make it easier to transport it to a dark site where I could get the most out of it.

I'll just stick to medium to high power observing for now and eventually try a smaller scope, either a Dob or a refractor on a simple mount. The main thing I was looking for was to simply be able to fit more objects in the FOV but for most of the objects I observe the smaller field is fine.

Thanks for the help.

--------------------
Mike
71 Messiers
149 total DSOs
6 planets


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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6140
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Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2560573 - 08/04/08 09:54 PM

The effect is equivalent to using a smaller telescope, hence the expression "wasting aperture". Some people are willing to do so in order to have a larger field of view.

If the exit pupil is too large, however, the shadow of the secondary becomes a problem.

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.


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Lawrence Sayre
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Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 3677
Loc: N.E. Ohio
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2560577 - 08/04/08 09:56 PM

Years ago I routinely used first a 40 mm U/O MK-70 and then a 40 mm Pentax XL with my old 13.1" F/4.5 Coulter Dob. The views were excellent, particularly for the Pentax.

What is sacrificed is appreciable aperture. What is gained is that the scope effectively gains in F/ratio. This gain is noticeable as an image which has the same quality as for the use of the eyepiece in a scope with the same higher F/Ratio. I.E. the image is improved, but at the sacrifice of light gathering power.

--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')


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Lamb0
professor emeritus
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Reged: 07/25/07
Posts: 668
Loc: Fairbury, Nebraska
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: Lawrence Sayre]
      #2560983 - 08/05/08 01:44 AM

The scope's 1500mm FL and 2" focuser limit the TFoV to a Maximum of ~ 1.77°, ~1.54° w/Paracorr due to a maximum 46.5mm 2" eyepiece field stop, i.e. a 38mm SuperWide delivering 39.5/45.4X with a 7.7/6.7mm exit pupil.

However, you may discover the illumination at the edge of the field plummets if the secondary is insufficiently large. YMMV

--------------------
John "Have eyepiece - will travel!"

8" f/5 Dob w/2.14" sec in a 12" alum tube 'The Mortar' - w/PCorr 2° TFoV @ 36.5X ~70% illum *NICE*
Typical eyepieces: 32 Burg, 24 Pan, 20T5, 5-8 SW, Others ALL 2": Pcorr, 2X PwrMt, Ast H-b, Lum UHC + OIII
60mm $50 Walmart Special in training - aka "Backpack Observatory"
Minolta Activa 12x50 , Steiner 15X80


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walt r
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/13/07
Posts: 2394
Loc: Doylestown, PA
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: Lamb0]
      #2561411 - 08/05/08 10:02 AM

All the above posts hit on the reasons why you can't get as wide a FOV as you want.
This are why many people also have a fast, smallish refractor.

--------------------
Walt

Obsession 18" f/4.45 #1370 AN/SC
MK67 Deluxe 6" f/12 Mak-Cass, Super Polaris GEM, JMI MicroMax DSC
DIY 60mm f/6 Achromat
Cookbook 245 CCD


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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06
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Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2561545 - 08/05/08 10:55 AM

I'm assuming your scope has an aperture of 305mm (12"). I used to own an Orion 12" f/4.9 Dob as well. One of the reasons I owned a 12-incher was the increased light grasp over smaller scopes I'd owned. It was that increased light grasp that made lugging the 50+ pound OTA worth the effort.

Some, including one or two in the group of folks I routinely observe with, will disagree with this first point (*cough* hoof *cough* ), but in my opinion exit pupil is one factor that *should* limit your choice of eyepiece focal length.

I'll be 44 in October. My pupil's maximum dilation is just about 6mm. Accordingly, if the eyepiece I use throws up a larger exit pupil much than 6mm, the photons contained in the portion of the light cone exiting the eyepiece that doesn't hit my pupil are lost, effectively reducing the aperture of the scope I'm using and defeating the point of having that aperture in the first place.

You can calculate exit pupil in a number of ways, but the simplest is to divide the focal length of the eyepiece by the f-ratio of the scope. A 50mm eyepiece in an f/4.9 scope puts up a 10+mm eyepiece. No human eye has a 10mm pupil diameter. A young healthy person has a maximum pupil diameter of about 7mm. Such a person, were they being mindful of exit pupil in selection an eyepiece, would be looking at eyepieces with a focal length of less than 35mm.

When I had my 12" f/4.9, I used a Siebert Observatory Series 34mm 2" eyepiece as my lowest power, dark site finder eyepiece. For my eyes that was a little large in the exit pupil department, but not massively so. That eyepiece had a 70 degree AFOV, produced 44x and an approximate TFOV of just over 1.5 degrees. In my opinion, this is the largest logical TFOV, being mindful of exit pupil, one can obtain effectively in such a scope. Siebert Observatory Series go for about $200 new. I really enjoyed mine.

My replacement for the 12" is a 10" f/4.7 Dob. I chose a Baader Hyperion Aspheric 31mm as the widest true field eyepiece for that scope. The 6.6mm exit pupil is a better match for my eyes. The TFOV of that eyepiece in the 10" scope is just over 1.8 degrees. I'm happy with this one as well but the Siebert had less astigmatism at the edge of the field than does the Baader. To its credit, the Baader has better coatings and less internal reflection than did the Siebert. I think I paid about $190 for the Baader which has a 72 degree AFOV.

Affordable 2" wide field's I would consider in an f/4.9 instrument would include the 35mm Baader Scopos Extreme, 36mm Baader Hyperion Aspheric, 31mm Baader Hyperion Aspheric, 36mm Siebert Observatory Series, and 34mm Siebert Observatory Series. The Scopos Extreme is a beast, however. It might mess up the balance of your scope.

There are less costly 2" wide fields in these focal lengths, but those that I've used in fast instruments were very poor performers in faster scopes.

The "ultimate" in this class would be a 31mm Nagler Type 5. In a 12" f/4.9 it would produce a TFOV of over 1.6 degrees, but is awfully expensive.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the Cosmos stir us — there is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation, as if a distant memory, of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries." - Carl Sagan


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NerfMonkey
super member


Reged: 06/12/08
Posts: 188
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #2562053 - 08/05/08 03:07 PM

I'm definitely just going to wait until I can afford it and buy a smaller slower scope and maybe consider a wide field Tele Vue eyepiece like a Nagler 5. But that'll be a long way down the road so for now I'll just stick with my current setup. Nudging the scope to see all of a big object isn't that much of a chore anyway.

Thanks again for the responses.

--------------------
Mike
71 Messiers
149 total DSOs
6 planets


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F.Meiresonne
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Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #2562285 - 08/05/08 05:28 PM

Quote:

Here's what the William Optics website says about the 40mm SWAN:

• Internally fully blackened (lens edges and internal spacers).
• No flaring or ghosting on high-contrast objects.
• Parfocal.





The 25 mm Swan i saw in an F/5 scope had considerable edge astigmatisme. I would not recommed it certainly not under F/5.
A good eyepiece but heavy : Pan 35.
Even better N26T5
A N31T5 is very big and heavy...
Nice and less expensive Paragon 40 mm

--------------------
Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm


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mistyridge
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Reged: 10/28/05
Posts: 2259
Loc: Loomis, CA -26Mi E of Sacto.
Re: Maximum Field w/ Fast Dob [Re: F.Meiresonne]
      #2562519 - 08/05/08 07:23 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Attached is a little spreadsheet I use to calculate FOV, exit pupil for various scope and EP combinations.

--------------------
Mike F
Misty Ridge Observatory
Stellarvue SV115T "WOW"! What a view.
Stellarvue SV70ED
Stellarvue Nighthawk
18" f/4.5 Teeter's, Swayze mirror
12.5" f/5 Astrosky, OWL mirror
15X70 Binos
Mounts: DM-6,M-1,CG-5(ASGT)


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