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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning Imaging

Pages: 1
Adrena1in
sage


Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Hampshire, UK
First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new
      #2549916 - 07/30/08 08:59 AM

Tried Andromeda a few times last year, but with only an EQ1 mount with my camera piggybacked on the scope, I wasn't really getting anything more than a smudge.

Now, through my Orion ST80 and using my EOS400D, with my Meade DSI-C guiding through my 127mm f/9.5, I'm finally able to take proper-long exposures without too much star-smudging.



I only managed seven subs before the clouds started to roll in last night. One was 60s at ISO1600, the rest 2 minutes each. PHD Guiding occasionally went a little freaky, allowing the stars to move quite a bit before re-aligning, but it was my first attempt and I was glad it worked. If I can get it working better I'll shoot longer subs.

Haven't really done proper processing on the image, as I only have Picasa where I am at the moment, but I hope to do more in Photoshop. (The core is too blown out for my liking.)

Still, it's the first image I'm confident enough with to post a new thread for here. (I just wished last night I could remember what DSO target was this month's competition!)

Finally, I've got IR, Broadband and minus violet filters...would any of these improve M31, as it's going to be a major target for me over the coming months?

Thanks.

--------------------
Phenix 102mm f/5.9, Phenix 127mm f/9.5 and Orion ST80 f/5 refractors on EQ5 with GOTOStar
Phillips SPC900NC, Meade DSI-C, Canon EOS 450D with 18-55mm IS, 28-105mm and 75-300mm plus 2x TC

Edited by Adrena1in (07/31/08 09:57 AM)


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justabob
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1067
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: Adrena1in]
      #2550244 - 07/30/08 11:56 AM

Could you link a larger version?

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all

Vixen Sphinx SXW LXD55
Self modded 350d
DSI PRO II
73 DE W9HS


Bob



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justabob
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1067
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: justabob]
      #2550249 - 07/30/08 11:58 AM

M31 is tough under the best conditions. One way to deal with core blowout is to shot some very short exposures to use as a layer mask.

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all

Vixen Sphinx SXW LXD55
Self modded 350d
DSI PRO II
73 DE W9HS


Bob



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FoxK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 1760
Loc: Cape Cod, MA
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: justabob]
      #2550339 - 07/30/08 12:47 PM

Hi

Its been a while since I've seen M31 but I may be able to help.
M31 was high in the sky when I first began imaging in November last year. This is i think the 4th image I ever took:


Its not a great image, but since its been below the horizon now, i've learned alot! In that learning process, i learned the subs are King among other things. A single long exposure for the lanes is really going to cull your ability to take a great shot. See if you can get 20 for each long exposure series as well as the shorts....as many as possible is good. Getting and implimenting dark frames will help as well.

I get that red tint in areas of light pollution..especially comes out with processing.....do you have much at your location??...I suspect that you took this image when M31 was fairly low on the horizon. Waiting till M31 is at least 40° up seems to be the magic number at my location for getting minimal haze from LP near the horizon.
Also, using a lower ISO with longer exposures might be helpful if your tracking can handle it. I find that doing a normal polar alignment and GoTo alignment, then utilizing my mounts polar alignment procedure helps alot...does your mount have this?.....after I polar align with my polar alignment scope, I do a normal goto align on 2 stars and 2 calibration stars...then I use the mount polar alignment feature and the scope slews to where polaris "should be"...i then look in my EP and see if polaris is centered. I then use my mounts adjustments to align polaris...DO NOT use the direction arrows on hand controller to align it here. After centering I then have to re-do the goto alignment procedure but now its basing this on a pretty accurate polar alignment so tracking should be MUCH easier now for guiding. Corrections will normally be for mostly periodic error. If I just do a 2 star alignment without the polar align feature, sometimes I make the guiding do alot of work.

After getting all this , I use this type of processing with my short and long subs...it works great!
http://www.astropix.com/PFA/SAMPLE4A/SAMPLE4A.HTM

One last note....i see some distortion on the left top area of the image. Make sure the optical train is VERY secure but even if its secure, if the optical train is not straight, you may get this distortion. What I mean is, lets say we're using a T-Adaptor attached to the focuser. If the t-adaptor isn't absolutely flush with the adaptor to the focuser, it may "hang" especially with the weight of the camera which means the light hitting the top of the CDD will be focused ever so slightly different than the bottom, so I take my cam off, attach t-adaptor to the focuser adaptor and make sure they are very flush and secure so sagging of any of the componants:


Good luck and have fun!

--------------------
Orion 80mm ED Apo Refractor
8" Classic Dob (used as Newtonian on CG5 mount)
Meade 70-AZ-A 70mm Guider using PHD
LS60TCaK/B600/C
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Nikon D40x with T-Adaptors
Philips SPC900NC
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04.AS
Dome=the box my mount came in so I can see my solar images in bright sun lol


- click for cloud prediction for Plymouth, MA. area


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sang33ta
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/08/08
Posts: 539
Loc: UK
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: FoxK]
      #2550346 - 07/30/08 12:50 PM

Amazing, how the hell you managed to image anything from the UK last night is beyond me, my sky looked like FoxKs' avatar!

I agree, high ISO is pointless on digital cameras it just means more grainy images.

--------------------
Hioptic 152mm f12.5 Maksutov
Celestron Advanced CG5-GT Mount (Mr Noisy!)
Meade 4000 Super Plossl Set
Casio QV-2900UX
Got fed up of waiting for Meade ETX-150 so put this together for £500/$1000

Edited by sang33ta (07/30/08 02:57 PM)


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Adrena1in
sage


Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: sang33ta]
      #2552158 - 07/31/08 10:04 AM

justabob: I've edited the initial post and linked a larger version. I forget that imageshack initially shows a small image anyway. Had to crop it though so it would be accepted by the 1.5Mb size limit. And thanks for the tips about layer masks. I don't know how to do that, but I can find out. My individual subs had an okay core really, but I'm still just a noob when it comes to processing.



FoxK: Thanks for the links and the tips there. M31 was a bit low really, but I'm going to keep going out and practising on it until I get better. I do get a little light-pollution, but at times it's fairly minimal. Can see the Milky Way clearly on a good night. I probably do also get a bit of an angle on the line of sight of the scope and camera...hadn't thought of that. As for Polar Alignment, the other night I just wanted to test guiding, so I didn't do any alignment other than making sure I could see Polaris through my alignment scope. My GOTO mount can do 2-star align, and I've read lots about it...just not tried all the options yet...just a little drift aligning once or twice.

sang33ta: It wasn't last night, it was the night before. I posted my thread in the DSLR forum first by mistake, and it took someone a day to move it! Last night was appalling! Oh, and as for the high ISO...again, this was just to test the guiding really, plus I'm impatient and like to keep my subs as short as possible! If I get a good clear night, and plenty of time, (tiredness was making me rush the other night!), I'll align better, drop the ISO, perhaps use a filter, (worth it on M31?), and go for, say, some 5-minute shots and some shorter ones for a nice core.

--------------------
Phenix 102mm f/5.9, Phenix 127mm f/9.5 and Orion ST80 f/5 refractors on EQ5 with GOTOStar
Phillips SPC900NC, Meade DSI-C, Canon EOS 450D with 18-55mm IS, 28-105mm and 75-300mm plus 2x TC

Edited by Adrena1in (07/31/08 10:06 AM)


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Patrick
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6778
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: Adrena1in]
      #2552244 - 07/31/08 10:44 AM

Quote:

If I can get it working better I'll shoot longer subs.




Shooting more 1 minute subs rather than fewer long subs might be better. THIS shot was (60) 1 minute subs at 320mm focal length at f/4.8. Going with longer exposures on Andromeda may burn out the core.

Patrick

--------------------


Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6 SCT
Denk Binoviewers
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR
Mini EQ1


My Astronomy Pages


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ChazK
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: Melbourne, Florida
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Ga new [Re: Patrick]
      #2553041 - 07/31/08 05:42 PM

Hey...that's not bad! But you need to shoot some core exposures of 1-2 minutes and the work on longer exposures for the arms. M31 takes about 3 hours of exposure to do it justice and by the looks of it you are well on your way!

--------------------
Tak TOA 130mm/NJP Temma2
Tak FS 60CB
Canon 40D (unmodded)
Astronomik CLS
Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6

www.digitalunatic.com


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DaemonGPF
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 1391
Loc: New Mexico
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: FoxK]
      #2554138 - 08/01/08 08:59 AM

Quote:

Hi

Its been a while since I've seen M31 but I may be able to help.
M31 was high in the sky when I first began imaging in November last year. This is i think the 4th image I ever took:


Its not a great image, but since its been below the horizon now, i've learned alot! In that learning process, i learned the subs are King among other things. A single long exposure for the lanes is really going to cull your ability to take a great shot. See if you can get 20 for each long exposure series as well as the shorts....as many as possible is good. Getting and implimenting dark frames will help as well.

I get that red tint in areas of light pollution..especially comes out with processing.....do you have much at your location??...I suspect that you took this image when M31 was fairly low on the horizon. Waiting till M31 is at least 40° up seems to be the magic number at my location for getting minimal haze from LP near the horizon.
Also, using a lower ISO with longer exposures might be helpful if your tracking can handle it. I find that doing a normal polar alignment and GoTo alignment, then utilizing my mounts polar alignment procedure helps alot...does your mount have this?.....after I polar align with my polar alignment scope, I do a normal goto align on 2 stars and 2 calibration stars...then I use the mount polar alignment feature and the scope slews to where polaris "should be"...i then look in my EP and see if polaris is centered. I then use my mounts adjustments to align polaris...DO NOT use the direction arrows on hand controller to align it here. After centering I then have to re-do the goto alignment procedure but now its basing this on a pretty accurate polar alignment so tracking should be MUCH easier now for guiding. Corrections will normally be for mostly periodic error. If I just do a 2 star alignment without the polar align feature, sometimes I make the guiding do alot of work.

After getting all this , I use this type of processing with my short and long subs...it works great!
http://www.astropix.com/PFA/SAMPLE4A/SAMPLE4A.HTM

One last note....i see some distortion on the left top area of the image. Make sure the optical train is VERY secure but even if its secure, if the optical train is not straight, you may get this distortion. What I mean is, lets say we're using a T-Adaptor attached to the focuser. If the t-adaptor isn't absolutely flush with the adaptor to the focuser, it may "hang" especially with the weight of the camera which means the light hitting the top of the CDD will be focused ever so slightly different than the bottom, so I take my cam off, attach t-adaptor to the focuser adaptor and make sure they are very flush and secure so sagging of any of the componants:


Good luck and have fun!




Great article! I was just looking for something to explain that process a bit better. I have that issue with my Nebula shots.. their cores are always blown out, you can't resolve anything in them.

--------------------
-Josh

*Orion Starblast Imaging 150mm OTA
*Orion Starblast Imaging 114mm OTA
*Meade 50mm AR short tube OTA
*Meade DSI Pro IIc
*Orion Starshoot DSCI
*CG5 mount
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My Messier Project Gallery


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s58y
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 4832
Loc: Eastern NY
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #2554424 - 08/01/08 12:00 PM

Looks good for just 13 minutes of exposure. M31 is a surprisingly difficult target, although it's large so you can use a small scope of camera lens.

--------------------
Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, SV66 guidescope
AP900, G-11, Barndoor tracker

http://www.pbase.com/s58y


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FoxK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 1760
Loc: Cape Cod, MA
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Galaxy new [Re: s58y]
      #2554854 - 08/01/08 03:53 PM

On a side note, if folks aren't aware of how big it is This shot was taken with a Nikon...i was testing LP to see if capturing the milky way was theasible, hence the not taking time for perfect focus (LP wasn't very good near the horizon for LP that's for sure but fine overhead. You can see the core clearly. This was using a 17mm Nikon DX lens



--------------------
Orion 80mm ED Apo Refractor
8" Classic Dob (used as Newtonian on CG5 mount)
Meade 70-AZ-A 70mm Guider using PHD
LS60TCaK/B600/C
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Nikon D40x with T-Adaptors
Philips SPC900NC
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04.AS
Dome=the box my mount came in so I can see my solar images in bright sun lol


- click for cloud prediction for Plymouth, MA. area


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Adrena1in
sage


Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Ga new [Re: FoxK]
      #2555678 - 08/02/08 03:21 AM

Quote:

On a side note, if folks aren't aware of how big it is This shot was taken with a Nikon...




I was thinking of trying a wide-field shot of it myself some time. But if you want to explain to people how big it is, I read somewhere that it's full width is six, yes SIX times that of the apparent full moon!! That's just unbelievable really.

Plus it's actually quite close to us. 2.2 million light years. Relatively speaking, if our Milky Way is a frisbee flying through the air, Andromeda is a slightly larger frisbee just 15 or 20 feet away! Both flying towards each other!

--------------------
Phenix 102mm f/5.9, Phenix 127mm f/9.5 and Orion ST80 f/5 refractors on EQ5 with GOTOStar
Phillips SPC900NC, Meade DSI-C, Canon EOS 450D with 18-55mm IS, 28-105mm and 75-300mm plus 2x TC


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NyxAither
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 774
Loc: Arlington VA
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Ga new [Re: Adrena1in]
      #2556525 - 08/02/08 05:52 PM

Amazing photos, keep posting!

--------------------

Thomas

Orion XT8i
Orion 80-T Refractor
CG5 GoTo Mount w/ COL
Meade DSI II Color
Meade DSI (THANKS TODD N!!!)
Orion 4.5" Imaging Reflector
Laptop: Trusty Mac osX Powerbook G4
Early 1960's Gilbert 3" astronomical telescope
10x50 binoculars
SPC900NC
..::*~*Clear Skies*~*::..


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Adrena1in
sage


Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Re: First image post - M31, The Great Andromeda Ga [Re: NyxAither]
      #2564462 - 08/06/08 05:12 PM

Tried some different processing on the orginal stacked output earlier, and I don't know if it's better. Less blown own, but a bit blue perhaps.



--------------------
Phenix 102mm f/5.9, Phenix 127mm f/9.5 and Orion ST80 f/5 refractors on EQ5 with GOTOStar
Phillips SPC900NC, Meade DSI-C, Canon EOS 450D with 18-55mm IS, 28-105mm and 75-300mm plus 2x TC


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