Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Has anyone ever dared take apart an A-P lens cell? It's a 155EDFS Starfire air spaced triplet made in 1998. I don't mean just remove it from the stationary part attached to the tube, but do that, and then actually separate the three lens elements and clean all six surfaces?
I realize it's not recommended, and I expect a lot of folks to tell me not to do it, but there are smudges that appear to be internal - and original - that I'd like to finally get rid of.
How dicey is it to put them back together and get everything realigned properly? Are the edges already marked for orientation and alignment?
Let me add that I'm super cautious, not mention nervous, about cleaning lenses. In fact, I haven't even cleaned the surface of this objective since I've had the scope. Thanks.
Jono
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MrGrytt
sage
Reged: 07/28/05
Posts: 494
Loc: Upstate New York
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Box it up and send it to Astro-Physics. Nothing to it.
Harvey
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Terry O.
member
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Northern California
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Call Astro-Physics before you even think about taking the lens elements apart. They are wonderful about supporting their product, no matter how old and how many owners.
You need Roland's advice before you apply Allen wrenches.
Terry O.
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Dave Novoselsky
sage
Reged: 06/16/08
Posts: 462
Loc: SE Wisconsin/Chicago
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What Terry said. Dave
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Time wounds all heels.
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Thanks, Harvey and Terry. I thought about sending it back, except they're the ones who sent it to me like this in the first place. When it first arrived I called and was told it was normal and would not affect performance. Plus they're going to charge me how much (?) for cleaning, and I'll be without it for who knows how long?
Here's a photo I took this morning. You can see the usual dew dots on the front surface, but there are smudges and even some kind of scribbles somewhere inside that have been there since I got it new in 1998.
I'm just hoping I can do it myself.
Jono
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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BTW, that's not just transient condensation. It's ALWAYS there, and has been for going on 10 years.
Jono
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Thanks Dave. I do appreciate the advice. Here's another shot, using a flash and with the roof closed.
Jono
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 13420
Loc: Oort Cloud
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I thought the Starfire 155 EDFS f/7 was an oil-spaced lens. 
P.s.,
At Company 7's site, their info for the new 160 EDF mentions that the 155 EDF was oiled. Scroll down to "COMPARISON WITH PRIOR EDF".
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A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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Pasquale
Encrypted
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 2219
Loc: Olympia, Washington
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Hey Jono, have you ever had one of those wild ideas that you acted on and wished you hadn't? I think this is one of them... Do as the others have recommended, and send it back to A-P for cleaning; now's not the time to save a few $$$...
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Pasquale
Go Seahawks!
NexStar 9.25 GPS / SkyAlign
Stellarvue SV102ED
WO ZS80FD Anniversary
WO ZS66ED Triplet
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Canon EOS XT/350D, Meade DSI, NexImager
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exile
super member
Reged: 01/15/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Guangzhou, China
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Hi Jono. Thanks, the photos help a lot. You might appreciate some input from someone who has just recently completed doing the very same thing with a triplet lens (but not the same as yours).
It CAN be done, but you run the risk of opening up a Pandora's Box no matter how cautious you are. When I disassembled mine I found (you might too) that the 'cemented' triplet was anything but, that there were no cell or lens collimating marks. Cleaning the lens elements will mean removal of the spacers, which HAVE to be replaced exactly as they were.
If there are any mistakes, re-collimation will mean extensive (and painfully slow) adjustments to all three elements under rigorous star testing. This is impossible using a real star, and you would have to get your hands on an artificial star to do it. I've read somewhere here that the only way to collimate a triplet properly is using an interferometer and it's probably true; the potential for error is much larger than in a two lens design.
But it IS possible, my triplet has a slightly better image than when I received it, the mould that was growing between the elements is gone, and it still gives me hours of observing pleasure. But it took a LOT of time, patience and care and I learnt a few things the 'hard' way...
In any case the scope is going to be 'off tap' for some time; this is not something you can knock off on a rainy afternoon, believe me. So maybe better for the AP guys to do it, ... they will do it RIGHT.
FWIW, the mould on my lenses did NOT appreciably affect the image quality and this appeared much worse than what I see in your photos. If the telescope works well and you enjoy what you see, forget it, be happy with what you have and don't court disaster...
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90mm Scopos f6.7 Apo Triplet on EQ2
Tak FS78 f8.1 on Vixen SP
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JakeJ
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/31/04
Posts: 1521
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Wow, that lens looks HORRIBLE! If it were me, I would have sent it back to them immediately - I am sure Mr. Christen would not consider that "normal" seeing those photos.
I agree with the others - send it back to AP - they will take care of it for you. You really need experts disassembling that type of lens. Position of the elements is hypercritical in reassembly, and almost impossible without the aid of an optical bench.
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12.5" Discovery TD
Vixen ED103S
...and way too many eypieces to list!
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Wow, thanks for the responses. This site is such a great source of information and expertise. Jake, I'm beginning to see that I should send it back to A-P, and I thank you for your comments. Exile made me realize that getting these lenses back in properly would be like guessing the combination to a safe. I wasn't thinking about the exponential complexity when dealing with three elements.
Jono
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Paul G
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 2268
Loc: Freedonia
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Quote:
Has anyone ever dared take apart an A-P lens cell? It's a 155EDFS Starfire air spaced triplet made in 1998. I don't mean just remove it from the stationary part attached to the tube, but do that, and then actually separate the three lens elements and clean all six surfaces?
I realize it's not recommended, and I expect a lot of folks to tell me not to do it, but there are smudges that appear to be internal - and original - that I'd like to finally get rid of.
How dicey is it to put them back together and get everything realigned properly? Are the edges already marked for orientation and alignment?
Let me add that I'm super cautious, not mention nervous, about cleaning lenses. In fact, I haven't even cleaned the surface of this objective since I've had the scope. Thanks.
Jono
Send it back to AP, something seems fishy. First, 155 edfs from 1998 is an oil spaced objective, not air spaced. Second, looks like a couple of large bubbles along with the smudges, as if the elements had already been taken apart and messed up. Third, I've seen a LOT of AP scopes and I've never seen one come from them with an objective that wasn't pristine. Send it back, pay the price, and enjoy a nice scope.
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Gus
Tasco 4.5 Reflector EQ Telescope
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1410
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Contact Roland, tell him about it and send the pictures. I am certain that he would want to take a look at it. Do not try this on your own, it is over most peoples head, not a simple clean and assemble.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Thanks Gus. You might be seeing a gap in the white haze or a curve of one of the swirly scribbles. I went back out to the obs and do not see any bubbles or anything that might be considered an "oil level" line (how does one keep oil inside a lens cell anyway? But that's a different subject). I'll take your and Clive's word that it's oil spaced, but for the life of me I can't find out for certain whether it is or not in the literature I have from back then, on A-P's website, or by googling. I just assumed it was air spaced. I did find online a reference to the 130 being oil spaced, but that's all.
The elements have never been taken apart. It's been in my possession ever since it was shipped here directly from Rockford, IL. I got on the waiting list 9/30/97, placed my order 3/24/98, and it arrived 12/9/98. I've never so much as wiped or dusted off the objective, nor touched it with my finger. It's always been kept capped and in the observatory.
Maybe I should have returned the lens right away, but who wants to spend all that money and wait over a year just to say, "I don't like it", and send it back? Besides, I guess I didn't know any better, or was in denial. When everyone says it's the best telescope made, you want to believe it. And when I called, they told me it was normal.
Last night I spent hours looking through 39 pages in the Post a Picture of Your Refractor forum with a lot of lens-on shots. Finally it hit home that mine just isn't right, so I thought I'd try cleaning it myself, and ask here how to go about it.
Jono
Edited by Exit-pupil (08/07/08 05:12 PM)
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Mike Clemens
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 4247
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska 61N
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if thats the way it looked when it arrived, something went horribly wrong in shipping, AP would never ship a lens like that
1) talk to AP, get RMA #
2)pull the three socket head cap screws (dont touch the set screws)
3) lift lens off
4) wrap in tissue paper and then box safely... this is an idea of what safe lens shipment looks like
http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/packing_the_lens
5) send to AP
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1268
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Has anyone ever dared take apart an A-P lens cell? It's a 155EDFS Starfire air spaced triplet made in 1998. I don't mean just remove it from the stationary part attached to the tube, but do that, and then actually separate the three lens elements and clean all six surfaces?
I realize it's not recommended, and I expect a lot of folks to tell me not to do it, but there are smudges that appear to be internal - and original - that I'd like to finally get rid of.
How dicey is it to put them back together and get everything realigned properly? Are the edges already marked for orientation and alignment?
Let me add that I'm super cautious, not mention nervous, about cleaning lenses. In fact, I haven't even cleaned the surface of this objective since I've had the scope. Thanks.
Jono
Unless you are an optician and have all the proper knowledge and equipment to put this thing back together I would not even consider taking it apart. Do not collect $200, Do not pass Go, Proceed directly to AP!
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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scope dog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 1321
Loc: USA
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Jono,
I had stains on my 152 F/9 triplet lens. This was cause I believe from the soft plastic lens cover touching the lens from the previous owner. Anyway, after the cleaning some of my coatings were missing. This was no fault of the cleaning, but I believe the plastic mold release oils or silicon on the cover that touch the lens.
The only issue I had is there is no recoating service at the time. This may because it was a cemented triplet and would be much more difficult. So maybe you need to ask that if the coating becomes damage that you can have the lens recoated and how much just incase. As far as you taking it apart "no". Unless you have the knowlege, optical shop to align, test and adjust, I think it would be just too difficult. When I had mine cleaned it was around $250. But that was a cemented triplet and only had 2 sides, and rather simple.
Jim
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Exit-pupil
sage
Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 230
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
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Thanks guys. I learn so much here. Mike, that's a great packing job you've illustrated and I will keep that in mind.
Jim, if that's how much it cost for your cemented doublet, well, I don't know. I had some cash back then, and I won't say for one minute I regret spending it on the 155 EDFS f/7 and 900 GTO, but every night before I head out to the obs I try to catch Suze Orman on MSNBC. If I were to call and ask her if I can afford to have A-P clean this lens for me, I know what she'd say. DENIED! 
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Mark Jenkins
sage
Reged: 06/25/08
Posts: 437
Loc: Wisconsin
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Suze Orman would have a stroke if she ever met me. 
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Astro-Physics 130mm f6.3 StarFire EDF 'Gran Turismo'
TEC MC200/15.5
Astro-Physics AP Mach1 GTO
EarthWin PFS-B
Canon EOS 50D Hap Modified
DFK21AU04.AS
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