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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning Imaging

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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
First telescope vs camera lens
      #2569208 - 08/08/08 07:33 PM

Newbie here... Thinking about dipping toes into observing, currently have only a Bushnell Sentry II 20x (from my rifle range days) that on a good tripod actually does a pretty good job looking at moon/planets. However, I'm a photo freak and have a couple of Nikons (F100 and D200) plus some pretty nice lenses, including a recently acquired Sigma 120-400mm APO DG with Optical Stabilization. On the D200 with it's 1.5x crop factor this lens performs as a very sharp 600mm f/5.6 lens, and with a good 1.4x teleconverter attached it's a pretty sharp 840mm f/8. On a tripod it serves as a pretty good telescope, and all I have to do is turn on the camera and press the shutter to get "astrophotgraphy", at least of the moon etc.

I suspect this $1k Sigma camera lens is probably as sharp a "telescope" as any entry level telescope on the market, and maybe better, although surely not as useful for observing or finding/tracking.

My wife and I are interested in trying some more serious observing, and I've been considering a push-to or go-to in the $300-$500 range for a first telescope. Neither of us could find the north star if it was in our pocket, so we can use all the help we can get for locating objects in the sky. I do not think my wife is the least bit interested in learning to star-hop to find things, she just wants to see them.

We are retired folk with late night time to look (and sleep late) now. I have an engineering and electronics background so I'm sort of a techie but my wife is definitely a non-tech person. Any suggestions for a reasonably priced first telescope that won't be optically inferior to my current "camera-scope"?

I guess my concern is that any optics in the lower end range might not measure up to what I'm used to seeing through my camera's viewfinder, and I'll be disappointed right from the start. Is that a false concern?

Thanks,
Jerry


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Patrick
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Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2569428 - 08/08/08 09:42 PM

Hi Jerry and welcome to CN!

Quote:

I guess my concern is that any optics in the lower end range might not measure up to what I'm used to seeing through my camera's viewfinder, and I'll be disappointed right from the start. Is that a false concern?




I think it's a false concern. A good quality telescope will be much better than looking thru the view finder of the camera...completely different experience.

For visual observing, aperture is king. You can get a great quality 8" f/6 Newtonian on a Dobsonian base for $500 plus shipping. This scope will give you far superior views than a camera lens. Ergonomically it will be a lot easier to use with it's sturdy base which will put the eyepiece at a convenient height. Interchangeable eyepieces will allow you to vary the image scale (magnification) at will. This particular model also has a computer that will locate objects after you select a couple of known alignment stars.

Patrick

--------------------


Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6 SCT
Denk Binoviewers
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR
Mini EQ1


My Astronomy Pages


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Franklink
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Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Somewhere Dark
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Patrick]
      #2569499 - 08/08/08 10:20 PM

Get a dobsonian, the altazimuth base is much easier to maneuver. I would personally avoid go-to or push-to, because it sounds like you just want to observe, not mess with equipment.

I agree with patrick on image quality. A comfortable 2 inch or 1.25 inch eyepiece is worlds away from (at least my) camera viewfinder.

As for aperture, your 1 k lens is 4.2 inches. The eight incher mentioned by patrick will give you wayy more light gathering and resolution.

just my 2 cents,
frank


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Galaxyhunter
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Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 894
Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Franklink]
      #2569564 - 08/08/08 11:02 PM

Quote:

I would personally avoid go-to or push-to, because it sounds like you just want to observe, not mess with equipment.



Quote:

I do not think my wife is the least bit interested in learning to star-hop to find things, she just wants to see them.




This is the reason that a Push-to is perfect. It is low tech, easy to learn & use. With a Push-to, You spend most of your time observing, not hunting.

--------------------
Carl

Hawkeye Observatory
Observatory - "Hawkeye"
Scope - 18"f4.5 on a GEM
8" f4.9 Orion piggy backed
Drive - Sitech Technology
DSC - Sky Commander
Planetarium - MegaStar
Camera - ST2000XM
Desire - comes & goes
Talent - ZERO, NONE, NADA (But I can Wish)


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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Galaxyhunter]
      #2569642 - 08/09/08 12:11 AM

Thanks for the comments and helpful advice. That XT8 Intelliscope looks like quite an intimidating beast to a beginner like me, but it also looks like it won't fall apart the first week it's used. I clearly need to do a LOT more reading and homework before plunking down plastic, but I like the non-automatic powered drive idea on the Intelliscope. I haven't read too many good things about the full function go-to "computerized" telescopes' reliability.

These were taken this evening with my Nikon D200/Sigma 120-400 setup. The first was taken with just the lens (effective focal length 600mm), the second with the lens plus 1.4x converter (total of 840mm). The T/C does degrade the image but not as much as I had feared.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2745125199_3ae9a97b6b_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2745960410_8d0abc574e_o.jpg


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Franklink
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Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Somewhere Dark
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2570287 - 08/09/08 12:09 PM

nice shots, Is that the same image you see through the viewfinder?

my concern is the initial alignment. I hear that is a pain.

I guess it varies from person to person, but to me, hunting is more than half the fun. It makes you appreciate the image more when you finally get there.

As for intimidating, If I settled for a more modest telescope, I would want to upgrade anyway.

clear skies,
frank


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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Franklink]
      #2570634 - 08/09/08 04:22 PM

No, they are 10 megapixel (3872 x 2592) JPEG's that were blown up to 100% (actual pixel size) on my monitor and then cropped. They were also lightly edited in PS Elements 6.0 to increase contrast and lightly sharpened. A typical un-cropped version (600mm setup) is here, which shows what I actually see in the viewfinder:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2746972689_10a161d679_b.jpg


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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2570671 - 08/09/08 04:37 PM

It turns out there is what appears to be a big time astronomy equipment dealer only 15 miles from me, called "Astronomics.com", in Norman, OK. I had no idea they were there until I saw their full page ad on page 2 of this month's Astronomy magazine. I'm going over there Monday so I can actually lay hands on some of these telescopes and get a little better feel for their size, weight, quality of mechanical construction, etc., and talk with their staff. Their website has a LOT of information for beginners on it, including a bunch of advice on a first telescope that seems to be practical and realistic. However, maybe I should leave my checkbook and Mastercard at home this first trip.

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Galaxyhunter
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Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 894
Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2570793 - 08/09/08 06:02 PM

Quote:

However, maybe I should leave my checkbook and Mastercard at home this first trip.





Great Idea!

--------------------
Carl

Hawkeye Observatory
Observatory - "Hawkeye"
Scope - 18"f4.5 on a GEM
8" f4.9 Orion piggy backed
Drive - Sitech Technology
DSC - Sky Commander
Planetarium - MegaStar
Camera - ST2000XM
Desire - comes & goes
Talent - ZERO, NONE, NADA (But I can Wish)


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Franklink
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Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Somewhere Dark
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Galaxyhunter]
      #2570805 - 08/09/08 06:08 PM

Astronomics is behind this very forum! you are lucky to be so close!

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core
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Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 116
Loc: Mostly in Norman, OK
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2571543 - 08/10/08 04:55 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Jerry,

fwiw here's a quick comparison shot (EXIF should be intact) taken with an Olympus E-410, out-of-camera JPG with only auto color and 100% crop applied in Picasa2. The 'lens'? It's a William-Optics ZenithStar 80mm (no longer manufactured) 480mm fl @ f/6. It's not an APO, and does not have any ED elements. The scope was in the $300-$400 range new iirc. I'm almost certain that something like say, the AstroTech AT66ED ($360) would provide even better results. Bottom line imho is that moderately well-made telescope with minimal air-glass surface will perform quite well compared with SLR zooms - the caveat is having a stable mount.

Push-to/go-to's will probably still require you to identify some basic star patterns to start out (otoh, some like Celestron's SkyAlign allows you to align to any 3 bright stars without knowing which ones they are; I just picked up a 6SE and it actually does work as advertised, fwiw). Don't under-estimate a good old pair of 7-10x50 binoculars to get started in orientating yourself to the night sky. imo astronomical observing is an exercise in subtlety, and in reality if you just push-to/go-to from one object to the next, after a while it all just "looks the same to me".

With a push-to it looks like Orion's XT6 ($380) and XT8 ($500) would fit right into what you're looking for - not too sure if Astronomics is matching the recent price drop though?

Now, since you're posting in Beginning Imaging section I presume you'd probably like to dabble a little into astro imaging - for close-up lunar/planetary imo you can get quite impressive results from a USB camera (Celestron/Meade/Orion/diy)and Registax (free software), compared to any dSLR.

And bring your CC along come Monday

--------------------
~Peter~


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JeffD
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Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 124
Loc: Tampa, FL
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Galaxyhunter]
      #2573086 - 08/10/08 08:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

However, maybe I should leave my checkbook and Mastercard at home this first trip.





Great Idea!




AMEX...

--------------------
Celestron Nexstar 80GTL
Zhumell 8" Dob

Brandon, FL




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tommyhawk13
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Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 492
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Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: JeffD]
      #2574466 - 08/11/08 01:50 PM

If you are going to continue with astrophotography, and I'm sure you will, look for a scope with motorized eq mount. You can still get one with an 8" aperature that will keep you busy for years to come. Orion makes an f/4 Newtonian on an eq mount, and the Meade SN-8 is also f/4, but a little more complicated to maintain.

--------------------



Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras


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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: tommyhawk13]
      #2575000 - 08/11/08 06:02 PM

I had an intensely interesting visit to Astronomics.com today. They are a 99% mail-order business, so as I expected the business consisted of a small showroom backed by a good sized warehouse/shipping operation. The showroom is nicely furnished, however, with about 10-12 fully assembled telescopes in several types and sizes, including a (to me) impressively huge 16" Astro-Tech reflector. There are also quite a few accessories, eyepieces, binoculars, books, catalogs, brochures, etc. on display.

In general I was surprised and impressed by the rigidity, overall "stoutness", and smooth operation of all of the mounts and tripods I saw. I guess I expected more "junk" and manufacturing shortcuts to be evident. Not so. After looking for weeks at a zillion photos on the internet of telescopes and mounts, seeing these units in the flesh turned out to be a nice surprise from a mechanical construction standpoint.

After putting my fingerprints on about everything there, wearing out the owner with questions, and listening to some choices, options, and sage advice, it's looking like a good starter combo for our particular needs is the Celestron NexStar 5 SE, which combines compactness and travelability (important to me) with reasonable near/far seeing power, low maintenance, versatility of use, and operator flexibility. About $300 more than I intended to spend, but still reasonable in my mind. I very much like the build quality, simple go-to setup procedure, and RS-232 connectivity. Also, the 5 SE's mount/tripod is the same unit delivered with the 6 SE and 8 SE models, which bodes well for mechanical stability and reliability on the 5" version. Later, maybe I'll add an Astro Tech AT66ED with a Celestron dovetail to fit the 5 SE's mount. But for now, I believe the solid build, compactness, portability, and simple operation of the 5" Celestron is looking like the #1 value for my particular application.

FWIW, Astronomics.com appears to be an excellent place to do business - reasonable prices, very nice and very knowledgeable folks, and no high-pressure hype at all. I'll be back.


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core
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Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 116
Loc: Mostly in Norman, OK
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2575769 - 08/12/08 01:07 AM

Quote:

Also, the 5 SE's mount/tripod is the same unit delivered with the 6 SE and 8 SE models, which bodes well for mechanical stability and reliability on the 5" version. Later, maybe I'll add an Astro Tech AT66ED with a Celestron dovetail to fit the 5 SE's mount.




Keep in mind the 4SE/5SE share one mount, and the 6SE/8SE is on a different mount. One nice thing about the 4SE/5SE mount/tripod is that it has a built-in wedge so you you can start out with a basic equatorial mount (for astro imaging you can also piggy-back a camera with JMI's mount, although the weight limit on the mounting arm might be an issue with heavier dSLR's)

fwiw I was in a predicament a couple of weeks back when deciding between the 5SE and 6SE; I've had the 5SE optics before (on a C5 single fork 10 years back) and it never gave me a problem, and optics-wise it was superb. The main reason I went with the 6SE in the end was to try out the new optics, and that I have a 8" Celestron that will fit on it. I'm sure you'll find a host of info and recomendations over at the Nexstar section in these forums, and at nexstarsite.com

--------------------
~Peter~


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Nils_Lars
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Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: core]
      #2575807 - 08/12/08 01:53 AM

Well I should add that I bought the 6SE and after talking with alot of people about me wanting to do Astrophotography they all said the C6S-GT was a better choice and luckily Orion Telescopes has a awesome 30 day return and I was able to fix my mistake.

A GEM is going to be the key to AP in the long term I think but thats one persons opinion.

--------------------
Erik

Orion ED 80
Orion Atlas GOTO mount
Williams Optics reducer
Various eyepieces and other gear
Baytronix 80mm guidescope
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D (unmodded)
Stilleto Focuser
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam

http://home.comcast.net/~eriknlarsen/site/?/photos/


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core
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Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 116
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Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #2575831 - 08/12/08 02:38 AM

Great point from Erik; fwiw I have a C8 OTA on a GEM, and it's not exactly a grab-n-go scope because of the mount imo - hence my decision towards the SE series for a go-to grab-n-go. I suppose the flexibility in switching around OTA's allows you to change/upgrade along the way. So for eg, at present I have a 80mm on the SE mount for grab-n-go (with much less cool-down time) including solar, with the ability to switch out to the C6 or C8 OTA. I'm in the process of getting the components to do a side-by-side mounting of a C6/C8 and 80mm for astro-imaging on a GEM, and looking at either the Porta Mount or Voyager for a simple alt-az mounting.

So for example, imho this might be one possible equipment path:

1-> 5SE to start out and get your feet wet for visual observation and starter imaging.

2-> an 80mm ED refractor on a good GEM, you now have a 80mm as a second scope, and you now have a GEM that you can mount both scopes for imaging/guiding.

--------------------
~Peter~


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picker77
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Reged: 08/08/08
Posts: 27
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: core]
      #2582762 - 08/15/08 09:09 AM

Well, after much agonizing, reception of excellent advice, and re-rethinking, I now have a shiny new Celestron NexStar 102 SLT (102mm) 4" refractor sitting in one of the spare bedrooms. Had to start somewhere, and go-to, portability AND low maintenance (and price) was near the top of my list. I downloaded and thoroughly studied the manuals for the three finalists (Orion XT8, NexStar 5 SE, and the NexStar 102 SLT). Initially I had the XT8 picked as the winner until size, portability, cool-down time, and maintenance issues caused me to shy away, plus non-suitability for terrestrial use, which is important to me (us) for this first telescope. Between the remaining SCT and refractor, portability appeared about the same, but a simple refractor is more like what I've used for many years - just an oversized spotting scope - and maintenance is pretty much a non-issue. The 102 SLT was also $300 less than the 5 SE. I have so much learning to do about lunar/planetary observation that serious DSO viewing can wait to see if my interest survives the training period. My wife liked the refractor at first sight because she understands how it works and it makes sense to her - she's used spotting scopes for many years. The fully automatic go-to with tracking was an important factor, too.

The 102 SLT, although it will be sniffed at by owners of high dollar refractors, seems to be a decent telescope with very smooth tracking movement and no-slop focusing, and the one quick 1/4 mile @ 26x terrestrial look I had through it last night was pretty impressive in brightness and edge-to-edge sharpness for this price level. I was a bit surprised at the wide FOV, too. At f/6.5 I might even be able to do some short exposure photography with it using my D200, if the camera body isn't too heavy for this setup.

If our lunar/planetary learning period is succesful I'll probably keep the 4" refractor for my wife to use, skip over the 8" Dob, and get a CPC 9.25 or something similar.

Of course, now I get to buy eyepieces (this is a lot like buying a boat or a top quality camera - the initial purchase is just a small down payment). The 102 SLT came with 25mm and 9mm Celestron Kellners. I haven't even plugged in the 9mm yet, which is only 73x on this 660mm scope. The reasonable limit for this telescope seems to be in the 150x range, so an erect image diagonal and Barlow are next, I suppose. I eventually want bino capability - I hate using one eye for scopes.

Does anybody know the exact metric thread size of Celestron's 1.25" eyepieces? I have a boatload of good quality color, B&W, and ND photo filters, including quite a few in the 30-32mm range, but have no idea what exact threads are on telescope eyepieces. I hate to buy another set just for telescope eyepieces unless I have to. BTW, Celestron's accessory catalog is pretty much useless if you want to know exact technical specs for just about anything they sell other than the actual telescope itself.


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G Smith
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Reged: 11/22/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Central Ohio, USA
Re: First telescope vs camera lens new [Re: picker77]
      #2593530 - 08/20/08 05:02 PM

Would like to show you my moon shot.
www.ohiobirds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=518
This was made with a 10 inch Dob., a Canon A-550 camera, and a 30mm eyepiece. See also the picture of the camera and 2 inch attached metal tube. Of course it was taken digiscope style. I tried prime focus photography with a DSLR but could not get clear pictures. I believe it was because of the vibration caused by the mechanical shutter moving across the sensor. Such problems are documented on “The Birding Forum” for long focal lengths.

My favorite camera is a Canon A720 8 meg. A better and newer favorite is the Canon A650, which is a 12 meg. These are very sharp cameras.

My system is very simple and precision made, my fabrication. A bayonet mount filter holder attaches to the camera. A 2 inch diameter by about 5 inch metal tube attaches to the filter holder. An Orion Expanse 20mm eyepiece is positioned inside the tube near the camera lens. This 2 inch tube fits into the 2 inch focuser of the scopes. Again, see picture address above.

I also attach a microscope objective ( a 4X Lomo Plan) to the open end of the 2 inch metal tube to take microscopic shots of snow crystals and small bugs. See my web site www.naturepics1.com So, good seeing and even better photos. Gene Smithhill1@Embarqmail.com

Edited by G Smith (08/20/08 05:09 PM)


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