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Pess
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Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2565880 - 08/07/08 10:12 AM

Quote:



I think this is the fallacy. If the two masses repel each other, they will be pushed apart.




A negative mass will repel another mass.

A positive mass will attract another mass.

Look at the space/time diagram. The hill starts at the top of the negative mass and flows down to the bottom of the regular mass.

Connect the two masses together and they surf forward on this gradient.

the crew comaprtment sits in flat space/time but 'feels' a pull towards the positive matter (Pulled by +matter/repulsed by -matter). So it sits on the connector between the two masses.

But even though the crew 'feels' a pull, the spacetime here is not distorted so time proceeds at a normal space and casualty is not violated.

The problem here is people are thinking in terms of gravity and mass when you need to think in terms of how exactly these types of masses are distorting space/time.

Note that this is NOT a FTL drive. Your top speed can't reach speed of light. Also, you have to allow equal time to accelerate and flip the ship around to decelerate if you plan on stopping anywhere.

Pesse (We are talking a generational ship here) mist


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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2566010 - 08/07/08 11:26 AM

Quote:

Connect the two masses together and they surf forward on this gradient.





Here is the fallacy - you are ignoring the forces from the connection. The connection provides an equal and opposite force. If you don't connect them, they will spread apart (accelleration occurs). If they are connected, they cannot move down the gradient - the gradient is determined by the distance between them, down gradient is apart, but the connection prevents them from moving apart.

You can draw the same "gradient" with 2 normal masses, one heavier than the other. But once they are connected, the forces balance.

Jarad

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Pess
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2566029 - 08/07/08 11:36 AM

Quote:


You can draw the same "gradient" with 2 normal masses, one heavier than the other. But once they are connected, the forces balance.

Jarad




Balance what? They both apply pressure to the connecting rod. Nothing is 'balanced' they are just opposed by an equal force (in this case the force exerted by the connecting rod). The space/time distortion still remains.

Last analogy then I'm done for the day.

Two surfers on the ocean; one on top of a wave and one just ahead in the trough. The two are connected by a rod at their waist.

The wave and trough correspond to the local space/time distortion. As the surfer on the wave comes forward the surfer in the trough also moves forward with the water.

Same as with space time. the masses would 'surf' the distortion.


Pesse (eom) Mist

Edited by Pess (08/07/08 11:56 AM)


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astrotrf
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Reged: 09/30/07
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2566223 - 08/07/08 01:09 PM

Pess,

The bottom line here is that if you're going to allow arbitrary violation of any number of laws of physics, there are lots of easier ways to drive spaceships than using "negative mass".

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

--------------------
Terry (astrotrf)


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jg3
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Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 209
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: astrotrf]
      #2566798 - 08/07/08 06:11 PM

One easier way with negative mass is to stow enough so the ship's total mass is almost zero. Thanks to f=ma, a slight nudge and they're outta here! (Maybe not in one piece, however.)

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Pedestal
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: jg3]
      #2566987 - 08/07/08 07:41 PM

BTW: All this talk reminded me, does anyone remember the "antigravity device" promoted so strongly by John W. Campbell, in "Amazing Stories" back in the '50's? I happen to have a friend, who is a gifted machinist, and is otherwise quite sane, working on a similar device for some years.
Or the story of the Coral Castle in Florida? How did he move those blocks????
Hubert

--------------------
www.smoggybottom.org





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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2567865 - 08/08/08 07:35 AM

Quote:


Balance what? They both apply pressure to the connecting rod. Nothing is 'balanced' they are just opposed by an equal force (in this case the force exerted by the connecting rod). The space/time distortion still remains.




Yes, it remains, and it remains in the same position. The forces remain on both objects, but no net motion occures.

Quote:


Last analogy then I'm done for the day.

Two surfers on the ocean; one on top of a wave and one just ahead in the trough. The two are connected by a rod at their waist.

The wave and trough correspond to the local space/time distortion. As the surfer on the wave comes forward the surfer in the trough also moves forward with the water.

Same as with space time. the masses would 'surf' the distortion.





The problem is that in the ocean, the wave is moving on it's own, powered by the wind. In space-time, the waves are generated by the surfers themselves. As long as they are tied together, they sit stationary on stationary waves. One is being pulled one way, the other the other way (the negative mass repels the normal mass). Since they can't move further apart, they can't move "downhill" on the waves. Since the waves aren't moving independently, everything sits still.

Jarad

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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pedestal]
      #2567873 - 08/08/08 07:40 AM

Quote:

Or the story of the Coral Castle in Florida? How did he move those blocks????
Hubert




I think I saw a show about a guy recently who figured out a trick to move the heavy blocks by himself. He used it to move a small barn. You take two pivots (large rocks or cinder blocks work). Get one pivot under the object you want to move, near (but not quite at) the center of gravity. Put some weight on the shorter end of the big object until it balances on the pivot. Now turn it on the pivot point to move the longer end in the direction you want to go. Place the second pivot under the object, on the other side of the center of gravity. Now transfer the weight from the back end to the front end. The center of gravity moves forward, and the object now rests (and balances on) the front pivot. Rotate the object 180 degrees, and move the first pivot forward. Rinse and repeat. As long as everything is balanced, very little force is required to rotate around the pivot, even for a very heavy object. The hardest part is carrying the balance weight back and forth to shift the center of gravity. It's slow, but one person can move a very heavy object that way.

Jarad

--------------------


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Pess
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2568093 - 08/08/08 10:10 AM

Quote:

The problem is that in the ocean, the wave is moving on it's own, powered by the wind. In space-time, the waves are generated by the surfers themselves. As long as they are tied together, they sit stationary on stationary waves. One is being pulled one way, the other the other way (the negative mass repels the normal mass). Since they can't move further apart, they can't move "downhill" on the waves. Since the waves aren't moving independently, everything sits still.







I am not going to address your specific comment because all the objections boil down to treating gravity like a force.

Gravity is not a force.

Forget the connection. Forget the ship. Forget the crews quarters.

Empty the universe of everything except a negative mass and a positive mass.

If you can describe what happens then everything else follows.

Pesse (Gravity is the road, not the engine) Mist


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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2568214 - 08/08/08 11:01 AM

Quote:


Forget the connection. Forget the ship. Forget the crews quarters.





You can't - without the connection, the rest does not work.

Quote:


Empty the universe of everything except a negative mass and a positive mass.




In this case, it is very simple. They repel each other, presumable by F = G*M1*M2 / R^2. So they will move apart, with relatively high acceleration at first, dropping off as the distance between gets greater. The relative accelerations will be in proportion to the relative masses (the force on each is the same, the acceleration is F/M).

Note that they are both moving, and directly away from each other. That's why the connection matters - it PREVENTS them from moving away from each other. So once they are connected, there is no net motion.

With two normal masses, the exact same thing happens - if they are not connected, they move toward each other (until they collide). Same relative forces, opposite direction. If they are connected, they can't move together, and there is no net motion.

This all biols down to conservation of energy. You can also view a gravity well as an energy gradient. Moving down the gradient releases energy, which is turned into kinetic energy. The gradient depends on distance between the masses. If the objects can move relative to each other (changing their distance), they can turn potential energy into kinetic energy. If they have their relative distance fixed, they can't change potential, and they don't gain (or lose) kinetc energy.

You can't get infinite accelleration for free from nothing.

Jarad

--------------------


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Pess
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2568623 - 08/08/08 02:28 PM

Quote:

In this case, it is very simple. They repel each other, presumable by F = G*M1*M2 / R^2. So they will move apart,..)




No. That's why I made it simple.

Negative mass creates a hump in the space/time that repels all other mass.

Regular mass makes a depression in space/time that attracts all other mass.

So now you have one mass moving toward the other while the other moves away.

Pesse (Can you say 'tag'?) Mist


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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2568708 - 08/08/08 03:17 PM

Quote:

No. That's why I made it simple.

Negative mass creates a hump in the space/time that repels all other mass.




As I understood it, negative mass repels POSITIVE mass, but attracts other negative mass. Positive mass attracts other positive mass, but repels negative mass. In other words, the attactive force between two masses is still G*M1*M2/R^2, but the signs affect the direction of the force. Positive times positive = positive (attracts), negative times negative = positive (attracts), but negative times postive = negative (repels).

What you describe does not make logical sense - the negative mass repels the positive mass, but the positive mass attracts the negative mass. That results in a violation of conservation of energy, since it can result in the infinite acceleration you are suggesting. I don't think it could work that way - either both experience mutual attraction, or mutual repulsion, not one attracted while the other is repelled.

In terms of the space-time curve you describe, negative mass makes a hump, but tries to move UP. Positive mass makes a dimple, but tries to move DOWN.

Jarad

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Pess
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2568719 - 08/08/08 03:22 PM

Quote:

(As I understood it, negative mass repels POSITIVE mass, but attracts other negative mass.)




No.

Gravity is NOT a force.

Negative mass repels ALL mass by creating a bulge in space/time.

Positive mass attracts all mass by creating a depression in space/time.

Pesse (eom) Mist


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Jarad
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Pess]
      #2569170 - 08/08/08 07:16 PM

Well, since that situation would result in a violation of conservation of energy, I think negative mass is essentially Unobtainium....

Jarad

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Pess
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! new [Re: Jarad]
      #2569221 - 08/08/08 07:37 PM

Quote:

Well, since that situation would result in a violation of conservation of energy, I think negative mass is essentially Unobtainium....

Jarad




While you may be right about negative matter being 'unobtainium, it does not violate the laws of conservation of energy.

How so? you might ask.

Well don't make me whip out tensor field equations here but basically as the two opposing masses race off after each other they would slowly radiate their mass away in the form of gravity waves.

This is a wild guess since no one has ever detected gravity waves and their existence is not certain...but hey, only a full-fledged god would know for sure...

Pesse (..and I'm only a minor deity.....) Mist


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jg3
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Reged: 05/27/07
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Re: Full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu! [Re: Jarad]
      #2569344 - 08/08/08 08:47 PM

An egg on my face for engaging with scholastic speculation from the stipulation of the existence of negative matter. Now to take it to some conclusions.

It seems the positive-and-negative mass spaceship can also be explained in Newton's terms: The two masses repel each other (universal law of gravity); this repulsion would accellerate the positive mass away from the negative, but it would also accellerate the negative mass toward the positive mass, because in f=ma, f and a get opposite signs.

This cosmic chase would require no energy, since the kinetic energy of this spaceship is zero. And hardly any force, either, for starting, steering, or stopping someplace to visit.

If you get ahold of a ball of this stuff, how would you handle it? Would it fall, or rise? I think both Einstein and Newton (if they would enter such a discussion at all) would put it on the floor. Again, from f=ma, its repulsion from earth would cause it to fall toward the earth. Or, you could say, the warp of space-time causes negative as well as zero and positive mass objects to accellerate toward the earth, the negative mass requiring a repulsive force to do so.

Once you get this thing onto the floor, to roll the ball north, push it south. To keep it from crashing into the north wall, catch up with it and push it north to stop it. Otherwise, the reaction force of the wall will accellerate it even faster to the north. With every wall it crashes through in your house and your neighborhood, it will pick up speed. Eventually it will plunge into the earth, to emerge somewhere else with seismic repercussions, and hurdle off into space. (It might not emerge intact, but perhaps as a hot gas jet.)

After a few errors like this, you could learn to harness energy out of it, should you not be more than satisified by the energy yielded by production of the stuff. Any effort to move it yields energy, rather than consumes it - once you get that stuff moving, any effort to resist it produces energy, while it acquires negative kinetic energy itself. Total energy is conserved! To stop it, however, requires putting back all the energy it gave while accellerating. That's a waste, unless you let it fly off to space.

Meanwhile, back in reality, it looks like matter, like time, has an "arrow", without which the universe as we know it falls apart into paradox even with the laws of physics in force.


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