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bcuddihee
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 934
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
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I'd get a pair of 20 TV PLOSSLS, and use an OCS with your bino. It's a fantastic combo. bc
-------------------- B Cuddihee
On the quest to find the best for the least!
--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE(a remarkable 8" grab and go)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of 26m Celestron Silvertop Plossls
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's
Pair of Smart Astronomy 16 EF's
Agena 38 SWA
Agena 26 SWA
Garrett 2" 2x ED Barlow
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mike bacanin
sage
   
Reged: 03/19/07
Posts: 346
Loc: united kingdom
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Daniel's comment regarding the AP SPL was interesting, i think the images in my AP 12mm are absolutely superb. as regards their availability, i found out over the last 12 months in obtaining some rare eyepieces, that you either have to be prepared to pay alot, or you have to offer a very tempting price. its worked for me, and i have what i've set out to find.its just that the prices these rare eyepieces now command have soared.
mike
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Tamiji Homma
sage
Reged: 02/24/07
Posts: 415
Loc: California, USA
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How about Tak 12.5 LE, TV 11 PL?
Personally, I like 20-32mm with 2x,2.4x,3.2x,4.3x barlow lens as optical corrector adapter to go higher magnification with binoviewer setup.
Tammy
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gjg
member
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Altadena, CA
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Hi BC, I'm using the TV 2x magnification amplifier with the 15mm and 20mm Plossls already. The OCS is the Denk equivalent?
Tammy, do the barlow lenses screw into the binoviewer prior to insertion into the diagonal? I've been trying to stay away from having to pull out the BV and change front ends. It seems like a more complicated way to go than just changing out the EPs. I love the fact that the Plossls are parfocal and I don't have to change focus. When I was just doing single eye-viewing, I had a mixture of TV and Pentax EPs that had dramatically different focal planes which required a lot of futzing with the focuser to get back to perfect focus.
The Tak 12.5 LE seems to be contender for what I'm looking for. I see a lot of people also go with the UO Abbes and HD orthos. Any sense for which of these are better?
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Svezda
member
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Plano, Texas USA
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Quote:
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That is one dandy review, Daniel. Yours are always dramatically interesting reads that are well received, congrats.
Wanted to offer a couple comments. One is there should be a sufficiently high quality very light salmon colored filter (W80A ?) to place in front of a 8mm TMB Super Mono to then satisfactorily compare against the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl.
Thanks for the kind words first of all. I find it very interesting you mention this filter. Donald Parker is highly regarded in planetary observing as well as planetary astrophotography. I had gotten word that he purchased this very same filter which is more commonly known as a Skylight filter. I've tested it carefully numerous times. I decided to call Don Parker about this filter about two years ago to ask him why he bought it. His answer to me was that he actually thought it improved color saturation in Jupiters belts for his exposures. I then asked him if he also liked it visually. I was absolutely shocked at his answer. He said he wasn't sure if he could tell a difference visually with or without it. It could be that his eyes are not as sensative as they once were but he admitted seeing a difference photographically. To my eyes, the differences seem dramatic but the issue I have with all filters is their low optical quality. Most of the companies are getting them from the same place and stamping their name on them and the most major gripe I have is reflections from what appears to be poor coatings or perhaps no coatings at all. The best filters money can buy are the German B+W optic filters. I have all of them in just about any depth of coffee tone I need and tested them in a 20" Starmaster with Zambuto optics on Jupiter. I was stunned. It not only reduced light scatter, but really gave Jupiter a very colorful tone.
The Super mono does give accurate color representation, however as I mentioned before, that doesn't mean Jupiter looks real colorful in them. What I see in the Monos on Jupiter is like an almost colorless, black&white or bleached appearance in the banding. Many purists just love everything in the tone of the eyepiece to be as white as can be but I can't stand that on Jupiter personally. Other Optics and coatings which give coffee tones are Celestron SCT (not Meade) line and also Spectrum's IAD coatings used on many mirrors, which I have on both my 10" and 12.5" Zambuto's.
There are many sources for optical filters and the're not all made in the same factory. B+W are among the very best but are $$$$$. I use Hoya Super HMC filters (HMC = Hoya multicoated). Hoya has several levels of filters going up in price. The Super HMCs are moderately priced but have transmission over 99% There is only one level above this to get 99.7% and it is very expensive. The Hoyas have been highly regarded for many decades and detract nothing from the quality of the image. There is nowhere near the surface quality necessary in a filter compared to that required by an objective.
The 'Skylight' filter is a photographic filter and the human eye could not detect a difference with or without it. The color of this filter is extremely pale but can barely be seen if you lay one on white paper. Try holding one up to your eye back and forth with any object day or night to see if you can detect a difference. Same with a photographic UV filter - meant to cut through atmospheric haze and works photographically but 'nada' visually. I find that filters to have any noticeable color altering effect on planets have to be fairly saturated - the very light ones like a pale, pale blue 82A have a very slight effect but can be useful for giving just a hint of contrast enhancement (blue and green filters are the most commonly used on Jupiter since they have more complementary colors to Jupiter's predominantly warm tones...like if you hold up a red filter to your eye looking at a landscape you will notice extreme contrast in all the blue and green elements in the scene and they become nearly black - same concept). Planets are best seen with filters of /opposite/ (or 'complementary' in art terms) colors to the predominant colors a planet shows without a filter. That's why using an olive green filter (if there was one) on Mars would effectively camouflage the green-gray markings on Mars but emphasize the tan-orange areas.
I don't get this idea that pure, clear glass detracts from anything. The TV glass and from reading here Clave glass tends to be very yellow compared to others and might help on Jupiter and maybe other planets but the nice thing about 'clear' glass like TMB is that you can always use a high quality filter to get any color contrast effect you like. Clear, pure super high quality optical glass could not 'bleach out' Jupiter's cloud belts. This type of eyepiece like a TMB Steinheil triplet (not a 'monocentric' design - this was advertising hype) or Zeiss Abbe ortho presents them /as they really are/, but if that is not pleasing to any observer visually that can be altered with filters.
-Jason A.
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Svezda
member
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Plano, Texas USA
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Quote:
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I ordered the 5mm HD from Helix not too long ago - now I noticed it's not offered any more. Baadar is selling a 5mm ortho that appears to be similar though.
Baader Genuine orthos apparently have same design and shape as the UO H.D. Abbe orthos but much more improved multicoatings yielding superb transmission and contrast. We have compared them to the legendary Carl Zeiss Jena Abbe Orthos 1,25" and the TV Plössls on the gas giants: the Genuines performed a hair better than the Zeiss Orthos and the TV Plössls!
********* I've heard this but from looking at the Baaders and the UO HDs it's pretty apparent that they are the same eyepieces with different engraving/branding...not different optically at all. The Ultima/Ultracopic/Parks GS are the same thing: same glass, different retailer.
-Jason A.
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2243
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Quote:
...Also, has there been any attempt to rank the EPs in order of decreasing performance for planetary viewing (e.g AP SPL, then TV Plossl then TMB supermono, etc)
Taking my comment here with a grain of salt, as I'm just in the beginning stages of a comparison, I'm seeing that ranking being AP-SPL, Brandon, TV. And really, each being just a hair-split behind the other for lunar/planetary (you really need to hunt for it). For bright nebula, maybe 2 hairs between the AP and Brandon, with the AP showing more contrast and therefore more details more easily. AP quite comfortable compared to the others in terms of eye relief on the shorter ones.
But again the caution, this is only after a few outings. After a few months things should settle and rankings might change...just never know since it needs a little time.
-------------------- 250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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KaStern
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 551
Loc: Dortmund
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Hi,
Quote:
Also, has there been any attempt to rank the EPs in order of decreasing performance for planetary viewing (e.g AP SPL, then TV Plossl then TMB supermono, etc
something like this would be worthless. The performance is dependend on both telescope and eyepiece. In addition one can cancel the aberration of the other (that is fine), or on contrary, aberrations can add up (this is bad).
Very often you can read something like "this eyepiece is superb". Not saying: wich scope, wich target, wich seeing condition, wich experience.
In other words: The statement did not make sence at all.
Clear skies, Karsten
-------------------- 200/1200mm ATM Dobson
150/1800mm Yolo
113/450mm Newt
80/1470mm Achromat
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Edwin Quiroga
sage
Reged: 01/31/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Miranda, Venezuela
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Quote:
(..) The performance is dependend on both telescope and eyepiece. (...)
... and the seeing. Even, your eyes. Very subjective issue.
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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Woodland Hils
   
Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 2880
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Hi Jason,
Great comments and I agree. Here's a piece of another review that covers this issue, which I've pasted here. BTW, I use B+W filters now. I have a cream tone which is a coffee tint and an 82A. Now I can use a TakLE's for example and add the coffee hue.
WARM VS. COLD
This is one of the main issues I addressed some years back in a planetary eyepiece review because I noticed that it was constantly being overlooked by even some of the most experienced observers in the world and it was a topic that was not tapped into yet, or at least as far as I know. I also believe that the topic needs some scientific study but from a visual standpoint, I’ll express what takes place. There are some cases where either the glass or possibly the coatings will influence the images seen in a telescope or an eyepiece. I have come to find that most purists have a bias for cold images.
Warm is simply a term used to describe an optic that has a slight coffee tone or yellowness, while cold represents a bright, white or crystal clear image that is completely neautral. We can think of cold as favoring the blue while warm favors the yellow. For most deep sky targets, I prefer an optic that produces cold images, with the exception of viewing Jupiter in particular and sometimes Saturn but it also depends on the magnifications used, particularly with the rings.
If you take an 82 wratten light blue filter and view Jupiter, you’ll notice that Jupiter’s equatorials belts will become darker and therefore you may interpret that as having more contrast. But, there’s a negative trade off that must be considered. The trade off comes at the cost of losing some of the color fidelity the planet has to offer because Jupiter’s belts now take on a more monochrome appearance. This is one of the reasons why I actually don’t like images to be cold while viewing Jupiter. I still use Televue plossls as a planetary eyepiece for Jupiter because they are slightly warm. They are the only eyepieces in production that have a warmer tint to them while the Clave of Paris are the warmest I’ve ever seen. Telescopes behave in the same manner.
Some observers misunderstand how filters behave because they just expect them to make features pop into view. In order for a filter to work, the feature under scrutiny needs to be visible to some reasonable degree first before the filter can accentuate it. I personally can’t stand filters because most of them are so much darker than they need to be and many of them ghost too much, probably because they need good coatings. With filters being as dark as they are, they take away the natural color and beauty planets have to offer. There are some cases where highly experienced visual observers like Carlos Hernandez or Sol Robbins benefit from them and that makes perfect sense because they're more interested in documenting a specific feature and filters can sometimes help in this case.
I sometimes use a very special 48mm warming filter and a #82 light blue filter for planets made by B+W optics of Germany. They are the only brand of filters I use. Other than that, I don’t use color filters at all. I often use the warming filter on Jupiter and don't always have to be as concerned whether or not the eyepiece produces the warmth I want. Every observer is different, so it just depends on what you like.
--------------------
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4300
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Quote:
There are some cases where highly experienced visual observers like Carlos Hernandez or Sol Robbins benefit from them and that makes perfect sense because they're more interested in documenting a specific feature and filters can sometimes help in this case.
Slightly OT: Carlos Hernandez is a very experienced observer, with many, many years at the eyepiece on his resume. Sol Robbins is not what you'd call highly experienced (in the sense that Carlos is), having said himself that he's only been at it for a few years. Sol is, however, a naturally talented observer and a gifted sketcher of what he observes. I'm not dissing Sol here, just pointing out how natural talent can certainly compensate for relative inexperience! I'd kill to be able to draw (or even see) Mars like Sol does.
-------------------- - Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2243
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Karsten,
Many of us often compare our eyepieces in multiple scopes to ensure any "ranking" we see in one holds in the other. Bill Rose goes to extreme and has a myriad of both scopes and locations that he drills eyepieces through.
More ofthen than not, off-axis is where differences usually show up. I don't recall anytime having an on-axis performance difference where a ranking differed between eyepieces. In the initial ranking I provided in this thread, like I said, only preliminary. When the formal write up comes out, you'll see all the things you mentioned...which you are correct is important so you can judge if the EP will perform similarly in your equipment or not. At any rate, that initial ranking comes from use in both a TSA-102 and an Orion XT10. It is limited to on-axis performance only as I am doing the comparison for planetary viewing. The ranking has so far held for both field and bench target tests. Any evening I log a comparison must always be at minimum Mag 4 skies and Pickering 6.
-Bill
-------------------- 250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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prestonrich
sage
Reged: 12/01/07
Posts: 367
Loc: Washington DC Mayland suburbs
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Daniel--
Fascinating report on the Brandons. I had really overlooked them since I've now had my Questar 3.5 with its cabal of Brandon's for over 25 years. I recently picked up the other scopes in my sig and am now wondering whether those Questar 1 1/4 Brandon's would work in my other scopes as well for planetary viewing. If so may they not be a great choice for that viewing?
-------------------- Preston
Montgomery Village, MD
Binos: Leica Trinovid 7x35 | Miyauchi Saturn III | Canon 18x50is | all on 475/501
Scopes: Questar 3.5 Duplex | C8/ST120/ASGT | LB 16" w/SC & JMI Track
EPs: Denk II PxS/FS | Hyperions, Brandons, filters
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Svezda
member
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Plano, Texas USA
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By the way, I have assembled a nice collection of 48mm and 1.25" colored filters and instead of fighting with cases for all of them in the dark, losing tops or bottoms, etc, I had Josh Moyer make me up a nice custom case for these so that they lay down flat and are easily visible over a white background. They are easily taken out and put back in and no need for boxes or cases. I plan to label each place for a filter with Dymo lettering since they are almost impossible to tell which is which in the dark. It will be a flat case that will keep the filters from shifting around when the case is closed. I've never seen any design like this so it may be a first. I'll try to post pics when it is done and when I learn how to post pics.
-Jason A.
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