Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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I've discussed this before and I continue to maintain that, if evolution is a valid theory, life should be everywhere.
This article talks about life in the clouds of Venus.
Evolution shapes life to fit the niche, niches are not shaped to accommodate life.
Venusian clouds, Martian caves, Europa's ocean and Titan's lakes should be teaming with....something.
Pesse (Life coming to Earth from Vesuvian clouds.) Mist
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled observer, bewildered student, bemused teacher.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "Answers are worthless unless the proper question has been asked."
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4262
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Interesting idea.
It seems like whenever someone comes up with something like this, there's a whole squad of people waiting to jump up and say "no, that's impossible".
So, in reality, men may actually be from Mars, and women from Venus!
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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InkDark
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: Montreal, Canada
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Quote:
I've discussed this before and I continue to maintain that, if evolution is a valid theory, life should be everywhere.
Everywhere where there is a source of energy to trigger life at fist. Luckily quite a few body in the solar are exposed to some sort of "endo" (the planet's or Moon's core) or exo (the Sun's radiation) energy source. Venus for one has a lot of energy to do such a thing. 
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Jimmy
"Rarely Have So Many Understood So Little About So Much" - Palle Yourgrau
"...since that time, I have not complained about the weather one single time. I’m glad there is weather." – Alan Bean, Apollo 12
What do you mean by “Saving the Earth”? The Earth is not in danger! Don’t worry about the planet it will be here long after we are extinct...
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10441
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
I've discussed this before and I continue to maintain that, if evolution is a valid theory, life should be everywhere.
And I remain a lot more skeptical. Primarily because the theory of evolution applies to the development and diversification of life after it has originated, it says nothing about the conditions under which life can appear in the first place. And I suspect those conditions may not be as broad and flexible as many others believe.
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Deep13
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/25/05
Posts: 1454
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
I've discussed this before and I continue to maintain that, if evolution is a valid theory, life should be everywhere.
By that reasoning, the lack of life on the moon invalidates evolution. This ignores the fact that conditions on the Earth were good for the origin of life while on the moon it was impossible.
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Preserve the night sky. Join the Internat. Dark Sky Assn. for less than a cheap eyepiece.
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
I've discussed this before and I continue to maintain that, if evolution is a valid theory, life should be everywhere.
By that reasoning, the lack of life on the moon invalidates evolution. This ignores the fact that conditions on the Earth were good for the origin of life while on the moon it was impossible.
Evolution requires 3 things to proceed:
1) Energy source
2) A niche that persists over several eons that allows stuff to chemically interact & 'stew'. ie: water, clay, etc
3) A diversity of basic chemical building blocks.
Pesse (The moon probably lacks two out of three.) Mist
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled observer, bewildered student, bemused teacher.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "Answers are worthless unless the proper question has been asked."
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
And I remain a lot more skeptical. Primarily because the theory of evolution applies to the development and diversification of life after it has originated, it says nothing about the conditions under which life can appear in the first place. And I suspect those conditions may not be as broad and flexible as many others believe.
Actually, it should.
All you need to start are conditions that allow the formation of self-replicating molecules.
Doesn't matter what the molecules are, as long as they can self-replicate and that errors can be introduced at some point in the self-replicating process.
I believe we are at the point where we can see self-assemble of some simple cellular-like membranes and 'almost' to the point where we can see very simplistic molecules self-assembly and guide their own replication.
It may not even require self-replication but, instead, exponential assembly, a process by which simple becomes more complicated.
And evolution is not confined to biological systems.
Man will probably cease to exist over a short interval when machines achieve two fundamental abilities allowing self-directed evolution:
1) The ability to self-replicate.
2) The ability to design a system more complex than the current generation.
Pesse (Imagine trying to compete with an AI system that processes information so fast that it can review the sum total of human knowledge between word pauses of a speaking human.) Mist
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled observer, bewildered student, bemused teacher.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "Answers are worthless unless the proper question has been asked."
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InkDark
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: Montreal, Canada
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Quote:
Pesse (Imagine trying to compete with an AI system that processes information so fast that it can review the sum total of human knowledge between word pauses of a speaking human.) Mist
Yeah, but if it doesn't have mobility, I could kick his butt with a baseball bat!  
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Jimmy
"Rarely Have So Many Understood So Little About So Much" - Palle Yourgrau
"...since that time, I have not complained about the weather one single time. I’m glad there is weather." – Alan Bean, Apollo 12
What do you mean by “Saving the Earth”? The Earth is not in danger! Don’t worry about the planet it will be here long after we are extinct...
Edited by InkDark (08/11/08 04:01 PM)
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John Carruthers
Skiprat
Reged: 02/02/07
Posts: 1681
Loc: Kent, UK
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If it can thrive on Venus I don't want to cross it 
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Jc
ATM 10" F6.1, 1/25th wave spec (max wavefront error +/- 1/12.6 in zone 4 of 6, sodium light )
6" F7 spec
127mm F9.4 Refractor
10 x 50 bin
ETX80 (finder)
Canon 20D
and a curious mind
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7704
Loc: About where I thought I was......
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Biological adaption, diversity and increasing complexity over long time scales is, IMO, not at issue. But as far as I know, specific mechanisms by which amino acids are shaped or shape themselves into self-regulating and replicating life forms are still lacking. We need mathematical models of statistical processes at the molecular level that delineate organizing principles sufficiently powerful to account for the unimaginable complexity that is life. I get the impression that such models are currently insufficient.
For a much better explanation of this line of thinking than I can offer, see Robert Laughlin's "A Different Universe".
Creation vs evolution is a pseudo-debate and not where I am "coming from". When we can model the origins of life over eons on a supercomputer, then we will have replaced debate by analogy with statistical and causal mechanism.
Do I know what I just said? Naw! But I got through college this way. 
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10441
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
All you need to start are conditions that allow the formation of self-replicating molecules.
And that, I believe, is easier said than done.
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
All you need to start are conditions that allow the formation of self-replicating molecules.
And that, I believe, is easier said than done.
I'll admit that this touches on one of the things about evolutionary biology that bothers me.
Out of the unimaginable biodiversity that exists out there today, almost every single species that can even remotely be considered 'life' utilizes the same basic set or subset of information encoding chemicals.
Specifically DNA and its cousin, RNA. In fact one living thing, plasmids, can be argued to consist solely of nucleic acids.
Sure it works, and it works well, but it seems to me that evolution would have hedged its bets with a wide assortment of encoding tools.
This being not the case (and I can only think of one living thing that does not use DNA/RNA encoding) it either speaks to a very rare and singular channel that leads to self-replicating lifeforms.......or
.....life on Earth was seeded with a set of organisms, all of which utilized a variant of DNA/RNA information encoding.
Pesse (Anyone know the single exception?) Mist*
For the purposes of this discussion, 'life' has the broadest possible definition.
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled observer, bewildered student, bemused teacher.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "Answers are worthless unless the proper question has been asked."
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10441
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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OR, there were originally several sets of encoding chemicals, but the DNA/RNA set eventually became dominant and drove the others to extinction.
OR, there could be several or many different ways of achieving molecular self-replication, but in our particular planet, DNA/RNA was the first, and achieved a monopoly via the "founder effect".
We don't have enough knowledge to decide between the possibilities yet.
What I do find fascinating, though, are all the different environments that tend to collect, activate, or concentrate different classes of organic "prebiotic" molecules. There are ice-template molecules, clay-template molecules, calcite/feldspar-template molecules, molecules that evoke "evaporating warm pond" environments, others that recall thermal vents in deep ocean surroundings... the list goes on.
What I suspect, but can in no way demonstrate, is that all or at least many of these environments played a necessary role in producing the molecular precursors of life, and that the interaction of these environments through wind, water currents, and ice and rock movements eventually brought them together in the right time and place for self-sustaining replications to begin. It didn't necessarily take a long time for this to happen, but the molecules had to be there in high enough concentrations, and large enough variety, to support the continuation of the first replication.
This is why I'm pessimistic about the proposed ubiquity of life. There aren't many localities that could have supported such a wide variety of prebiotic environments. Mars may or may not have done so. Europa may or may not. I doubt that Venus ever would have.
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15782
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Hey guys lets keep this conversation on the topic of Venus and way from Earthly biology... thanks folks!
Your friendly Moderator...
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4262
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Preston,
It's hard to discuss life on Venus without referring to earthly biology, since that's the only baseline we have. How do we define life otherwise? Until we unambiguously identify extraterrestrial life, we only have the one example.
If we can't use the only reference available to us, may as well lock 'er down now...
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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davidpitre
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1408
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
This is why I'm pessimistic about the proposed ubiquity of life. There aren't many localities that could have supported such a wide variety of prebiotic environments. Mars may or may not have done so. Europa may or may not. I doubt that Venus ever would have.
Preston,
I agree that this discussion has much to do with the likelihood of life in Venus' atmosphere.
The original poster stated at the beginning:
" Evolution shapes life to fit the niche, niches are not shaped to accommodate life.
Venusian clouds, Martian caves, Europa's ocean and Titan's lakes should be teaming with....something. "
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David
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10441
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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One step at a time, I guess. If life is eventually found or not found at either the surface or in the subsurface of Mars, how do you think either circumstance will affect the prospects for life in the clouds of Venus?
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15782
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Sorry folks I wasn't very clear, I was trying to give just a gentle push I guess the meaning got lost, y'all can talk about how life might evolove on Venus, but lets keep the discussion away from the origin of evolution or the theory of evolution
Thanks!
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
One step at a time, I guess. If life is eventually found or not found at either the surface or in the subsurface of Mars, how do you think either circumstance will affect the prospects for life in the clouds of Venus?
I think if life is found on one, then you'll find it on the other.
Let's not forget that just a few decades back a majority of scientists felt that life could only be found if a very narrow subset of conditions were met.
I felt from as long as I could conceptualize the theory --the theory that shall not be named  -- , that the 'tailored requirements' requirement was not compatible with the theories basic tenets.
Then low and behold we began finding thermophiles all over the Earth. In fact, in any niche having all three of my earlier referenced requirements, we find a life adapted perfectly and thrives..from deserts to arctic tundras to hydrothermal vents.
This validated my own line of thinking.
Venus has gone through the same earlier epochs of planetary formation as the Earth. Rough estimates place the divergence around 2 billion years after formation.
Venus got too hot and its oceans evaporated leaving Co2 that turned the planet into a huge greenhouse.
Earth stayed just right so its CO2 dissolved in the oceans and ended up locked in minerals (readers digest version).
The divergence between Venus & Earth occurred approximately 2 billion years after the planets cooled....till the Venusian oceans boiled away.
Prior to that Earth & Venus likely shared any life through spore exchange thus making life--up to that point-- close to identical for the 'twins'.
2 Billion years ago the Earth had just reached the Eukaryote stage of development. This is a major milestone in adaptability as it made for a nice genetic package that was ripe to trigger an explosion of complex speciezation.
At the 2 billion year mark things may have changed gradually or rapidly. If there was enough time, life could & should have moved up to the dense cloud layers. The atmosphere of Venus is so dense it can almost be thought of as an 'ocean' in its own right, albeit a tad acidic.
Same with mars. She had a nice ocean and with a gradual loss of water, or movement to underground reservoirs, life could have had plenty of time to move into protected niches.
Pesse (Conspiracy theorists claim NASA microphones recorded the word 'ouch' when the Mars Polar Lander touched down.) Mist
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12" RCX400
WILLIAM OPTICS 110mm APO ZENITH STAR refractor
Custom Wyorock focuser for refractor
Douglas Schwan DC
Befuddled observer, bewildered student, bemused teacher.
Purveyor of cognitive dissonance.
Todays Quote: "Answers are worthless unless the proper question has been asked."
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4262
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Quote:
By that reasoning, the lack of life on the moon invalidates (the theory which shall not be named). This ignores the fact that conditions on the Earth were good for the origin of life while on the moon it was impossible.
To digress just a little, why is life on the Moon actually impossible? A virus survived on one of the Surveyor craft for 3 years on the moon, and was still viable when the astronauts picked it up. If that's possible, why not indigenous life?
Not to say it's there; but it could be.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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