asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 2089
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Collinder Catalog
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ASTERON
sage
Reged: 11/24/07
Posts: 476
Loc: ISRAEL
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Hi Thomas,
This is a great compilation.
Thanks for the detective and updating work and for sharing this with us- Kudo's to you. 
Would it be possible to provide an electronic copy in an editable Word format or Excel format (or if there are any issues with an editable format then in a PDF format so it can be saved into a hard disk and printed conveniently with a fixed table header row on each page etc...)
I am sure this would be really appreciated by everyone in the cloudynights community.
I for one intend to print this out and laminate it for field use (if you are kind enough to provide a printable form. 
Thanks
Lihu
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************************************************
Meade 12" LX200R (GE mounted)
Takahashi FSQ 106 ED
WO 90mm Megrez "Fluorite" Doublet
WO 66mm (Petzval)
ETX125PE
Garret Optical 25X100 Binoculars
Lunt LS60T50HaDS BP1200/FT
Lunt LS60CaK BP1200/FT
Orion Atlas EQG Mount
Edited by ASTERON (08/13/08 09:36 AM)
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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2648
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Thank you, this is excellent detective work. There are many Cr clusters in the SAC database, you could start with the Excel version and search for "Cr" through the spreadsheet and make a version of this. Obviously, it would have less entries, I am not going to worry about the fact that M 71 has a Cr number that no one uses to refer to that object.
My point is that those of you who wish for an Excel version can make one starting with the Saguaro Astronomy Club data.
www.saguaroastro.org
Good work;
Steve Coe
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TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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Astrogranny
journeyman
Reged: 08/18/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
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Great article and fascinating story. I looked for the NGC ver. 1.02 online and didn't immediately find it. Could you provide a hint? Thanks very much.
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Astrogranny
journeyman
Reged: 08/18/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
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Ok, I found it. And it's GREAT!
http://www.ngcic.org/
I found it through the Saguaro Astronomy Club - also a great site and calculated to give those of us on the east coast a severe case of dark sky envy.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5684
Loc: Inner Solar System
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This is great!
Now, S&T will come out with a laminated "Collinder Card", "Collinder Clubs" will form, and Steve O'Meara will write a book.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Now why didn't I think of that?!?
I coulda bought an Ethos!
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Hi Thomas,
This is a great compilation.
Thanks for the detective and updating work and for sharing this with us- Kudo's to you.
Would it be possible to provide an electronic copy in an editable Word format or Excel format (or if there are any issues with an editable format then in a PDF format so it can be saved into a hard disk and printed conveniently with a fixed table header row on each page etc...)
I am sure this would be really appreciated by everyone in the cloudynights community.
I for one intend to print this out and laminate it for field use (if you are kind enough to provide a printable form.
Thanks
Lihu
Glad you like it.
I have a pdf version on my computer. I'm looking into how that might be made available through CN, but if that doesn't work out we can exchange emails and I'll send it to you that way.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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Dave Chadsey
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 508
Loc: Southern California
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Thanks for all the work. Great job!
Dave
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...and deliver us from ego.
66mm Stellarvue ED
4" achro
8" Nexstar
10" Orion Dob
16" Meade Dob (split tube)
Many binos
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george golitzin
member
Reged: 02/24/06
Posts: 65
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What a fine piece of work. Thanks Thomas for a great job.
--George
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ASTERON
sage
Reged: 11/24/07
Posts: 476
Loc: ISRAEL
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Glad you like it.
I have a pdf version on my computer. I'm looking into how that might be made available through CN, but if that doesn't work out we can exchange emails and I'll send it to you that way.
Tom,
This sounds great. BTW, did you arrange the table so the header row repeats on each printed page ? this will greatly help in field use of such a cataloge because you dont have to remember what each column represents. this may be easily done in word or excel- thats why I wanted an editable file (probably not so easy in a non-editable PDF  )
I will send you my e-mail in a private message for sending the file.
Thanks 
Lihu
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************************************************
Meade 12" LX200R (GE mounted)
Takahashi FSQ 106 ED
WO 90mm Megrez "Fluorite" Doublet
WO 66mm (Petzval)
ETX125PE
Garret Optical 25X100 Binoculars
Lunt LS60T50HaDS BP1200/FT
Lunt LS60CaK BP1200/FT
Orion Atlas EQG Mount
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12230
Loc: Los Angeles
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Excellent.
I copied and pasted it to a Word document, saved it as a text file, and opened it in Excel. It created columns just fine.
Quite a valuable list.
Thanks for the efforts!
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Thanks, all. I've never tried anything like this before, so the responses are certainly gratifying. I enjoyed digging up all the information and putting it together (and thanks to Tom Trusock for giving it a look before I turned it loose  ), but it really feels complete to see others making use of it. 
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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EJN
sage
Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 214
Loc: Pluto
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Quote:
I copied and pasted it to a Word document, saved it as a text file, and opened it in Excel. It created columns just fine.
The HTML table can be directly pasted into Excel
as I have done - see attachment.
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waskeyc
journeyman
Reged: 06/27/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Virginia
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Thanks for putting together this list, I look forward to putting it to use. 
Am I correct to assume that AnS' refers to the angular size in arc-seconds? The description does not specify, though the apostrophe does indicate arc-seconds.
Thanks again for the great work!
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Chris
Celestron C4R
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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AnS' = Angular Size in Arcminutes. Thanks for pointing that out.
Doesn't matter how many times I review and proof a document, I always miss something. 
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
Edited by desertstars (08/14/08 05:31 PM)
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Quote:
I copied and pasted it to a Word document, saved it as a text file, and opened it in Excel. It created columns just fine.
The HTML table can be directly pasted into Excel
as I have done - see attachment.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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barnowl
member
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 66
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Is that angular size in seconds or minutes?
Really a great job, Tom. Thanks for all your effort.
Lee
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Arcminutes... yeesh, it's been one of those days... 
I've edited my previous post. 
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: Waco, TX
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An unofficial conversion of the Collinder Catalog to AstroInfo (free, for Palm) format is here: http://pruss.mobi/dl/Collinder.pdb
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Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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mcoren
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
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Thanks, Tom, for the tenacity and thoroughness in following through on this, and, of course, for sharing it with us! 
My first "run-in" with Collinder wasn't the coat hanger, but Cr21 in Triangulum. I came across it about two years ago during an otherwise pointless search for NGC 672 and IC 1727 from my suburban backyard. It's not shown in the S&T Pocket Sky Atlas, so I had to check Sky Atlas 2000 in order to find out what it was.
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Mike
Orion SkyQuest XT10
Suburban Washington DC
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: Waco, TX
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I noticed that plotting these (orange dots) gives a rather nice picture of the galactic plane:
 
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Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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gjg
member
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 81
Loc: Altadena, CA
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Great job, Tom.
Thanks
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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2648
Loc: Arizona, USA
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arpruss;
I would say that Per Collinder did a darn good job of surveying a set of open clusters along the Milky Way. Fun map, thanks.
Steve Coe
--------------------
TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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rookie
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/14/06
Posts: 880
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
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Great writing and a wonderful story.
Thanks for all your hard work and for sharing it with the rest of us! 
--------------------
SV
Scope: Celestron CPC8
Binoculars: Garrett GT80~45, Fujinon 16x70, Regals 10x42, Ultima 9x63, Nikon AE 8x40
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cildarith
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 2357
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Nice work Tom!
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Eric
6" f/6 Parks Newtonian
10x50 Bushnell Binocs
CN Sketch Gallery||MinDat Mineral Gallery
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5684
Loc: Inner Solar System
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I've been reading through it, and the notes at the end. Man! That's a lot of looking stuff up in various references! Very nice work, and really good of you to just make it available to all of us.
It seems like a lot of the strange, obscure, trippy clusters across the sky are known primarily - or only - by their Collinder numbers. I suspect this will become a favorite catalog of mine!
Thanks again for doing this.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
That's a lot of looking stuff up in various references!
Thanks. I had no idea what I was getting into when I started! It quickly developed a life of its own.
There's an old say, something like "It ain't work if yer havin' fun." Certainly applied in this case.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12230
Loc: Los Angeles
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As an aside, I discovered that there are a host of catalogs of objects visible in fairly small scopes:
Tombaugh, Trumpler, King, Stock, Dolidze, DoDz, Ruprecht, Czernik, etc. And Collinder, of course.
Yet, almost none of these are in the databases on computerized scopes, while hundreds or thousands of ultrafaint UGC, MCG, and PGC galaxies are.
Why?
Because the data wasn't immediately available in digital format.
As Thomas discovered, sometimes it takes blood, sweat, and tears to complie a list of objects, and the telescope companies didn't have anyone working for them who cared enough to add the objects that could be seen when long lists of objects that couldn't be seen would pad the size of the list for advertising purposes.
Thanks to Thomas for this "observer's gift".
Oh, and if you'd like some of those other catalogs, try the Saguaro Astronomy Club's database at:
http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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blb
sage
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 216
Loc: Piedmont NC
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This is a great list, Thanks for the hard work. I was having some difficulty with the classfications though.
I think the "Glob" means looks like a globular cluster but
does "Neb" mean it looks nebular or is it imbeded in a nebula? But What dose 1 1/4 Norm, Plei and Praes mean?
Thanks for any help.
Buddy 
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C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66
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mcoren
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
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Tom, could you elaborate a bit about Collinder's classification system? I see from the description you say the practice was to compare them to "typical and well known clusters as examples." So, I assume "Plei" means like the Pleiades, "Praes" means like the Praespe, but what about things like "chain", "nl", and "μ Norm"? Thanks!
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Mike
Orion SkyQuest XT10
Suburban Washington DC
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basel10
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 805
Loc: TN
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Thanks for the research and posting of the excellent info. That is one of the reasons I encourage people to choose their astronomy software carefully. Few programs do not plot collinder clusters or king, melotte, basel and dark nebula. This was much worse years ago but some programs exist that plot ngc/ic only today. Be careful about the program you choose and be sure it plots all objects you can see and the NGC/IC isn't it. That is one of the main reasons why I don't think Microsoft's World Wide Telescope is suitable for field use. Though it is excellent for public outreach and education.
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www.knoxvilleobservers.org
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: Waco, TX
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I am guessing that "nl" is what is put in when a numerical value is not available. The mysterious "??Norm" is your browser's mangling of "muNorm", where "mu" is the Greek letter--what it means, I don't know.
--------------------
Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Tom, could you elaborate a bit about Collinder's classification system? I see from the description you say the practice was to compare them to "typical and well known clusters as examples." So, I assume "Plei" means like the Pleiades, "Praes" means like the Praespe, but what about things like "chain", "nl", and "μ Norm"? Thanks!
"nl" means I could not find any information on the matter listed. (nl = not listed.)
I assume that when Collinder and his advisor refered to something as a "chain" they mean't a linear arrangement of stars. From what I recall off the top of my head from the dissertation and Collinder's notes, the word was used as if it was safe to assume everyone would know what they meant. Seventy years ago that may have been the case.
Neb means the cluster is associated with a nebula in some way, which as I understand it led to some of the confusion with NGC/IC numbers. Whether the nebulosity is visible to visual observers in any given case is hard to say. Keep in mind that he used photographic plates to compile this catalog for his study.
The oddity you see with Norm after it is indeed, as arpruss suspects, mu Normae, an open cluster in the constellation Norma.
Edited by desertstars (08/16/08 12:58 PM)
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mcoren
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
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Thanks for the clarification on the classification. I use MacOS X and the "mu Norm" strangeness happens in three different browsers - Firefox, Safari, and IE 5.1. It must be the way OS X renders that character. 
Thanks again!
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Mike
Orion SkyQuest XT10
Suburban Washington DC
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 Special Ed
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/03
Posts: 4306
Loc: Greenbrier Co., WV 38N, 80W
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Tom,
Excellent work--well researched, well organized, and well written. The effort you put in is apparent 
--------------------
Michael Rosolina
8" f/10 Orange Tube SCT
4.25" f/4.2 Astroscan Reflector
SVP 3.6" f/13.6 CA Reflector
40mm PST f/10
APM Germany HD 15x70 binoculars
Canon 12x36 IS II binoculars
Mark I Eyeball
My CN Gallery
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Thanks.
--------------------
Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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Ante Perkovic
newbie
Reged: 12/23/08
Posts: 1
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Could you please check Collinder 458? You list it as =Harvard 21 (in Cassiopeia), but here and here it is listed as Dolidze 21 (in Orion). 
Ante
http://deepskypedia.com
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Curious. In the second of the links you provide I find a record that lists Cr 458 as both Harvard 21 and Dolidze 21.
There has apparently been a considerable amount of confusion in the compilation of star cluster catalogs over the decades. Quite a bit of the text of the book Star Clusters by Brent A. Archinal and Steven J. Hynes involves their effort to straighten things up. (The research Archinal and Hynes have done in this regard is part of the reason I relied so heavily on their book.) Whether or not Collinder 458 aka Harvard 21 aka Dolidze 21 has run afoul of such confusion, leading to the listings you've found, I can't say until I can check my references at home, which I will do later today.
If we're lucky, I just miss-typed something.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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According to Archinal & Hynes (Star Clusters page 133) Dolidze 21 was listed incorrectly as being an alias of Collinder 458 in one part of the Lund Catalog. Collinder 458 is Harvard 21 - and probably an asterism, not a true cluster, as it happens. Apparently the error has been repeated when others have used the Lund Catalog as a resource.
--------------------
Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
Edited by desertstars (12/23/08 11:47 PM)
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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It eventually occurred to me to check the original source. In my copy of Collinder's original catalog he gives the RA/DEC coordinates for Cr 458 (and Harvard 21), that clearly place the object in Cassiopeia.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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While using the updated Collinder Catalog for a project of his own, CN member Al Whitney discovered a trio of errors involving coordinates. Object designations, constellations, and the CORRECT RA/DEC numbers follow:
Cr 328 (NGC 6352) Ara 17h 25m 29.1s -48° 25' 22"
Cr 391 (NGC 6705) Sct 18h 51m 05.9s -06° 16' 12"
Cr 418 (IC 4996) Cyg 20h 16m 31.7s +37° 38' 35"
In the interests of consistency, the corrections were taken from the NGC/IC Project and from Star Clusters by Brent Archinal and Steven Hynes.
Thank you Al for catching these and bringing them to my attention!
--------------------
Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Tom,
Fantastic work.
I read the review and went through this Collinder Catalog a few weeks ago. From an astronomical/historical perspective, I'm quite fascinated by Per Collinder's classification system, i.e., generally Praesepe (M44) or Pleiades (M45). I suspect his classification was based upon, or uniquely derived from, commonly accepted views in astronomical observation and/or research of his period. What were those views? Why classify simply between M44 abd M45? It is just not self-evident to me.
I know the Trumpler classification system prevails today, but there are different evaluations of Praesepe and the Pleiades using this system.
At one website, I found the following, and I assume properly, referenced information:
Praesepe (M44):
I 2 r
II 2 m
II 2 r
Pleiades (M45):
II 3 r
I 3 r n
For reference, here's a link to that site for M45:
M45 Page
I use Cartes du Ciel frequently. I downloaded an interesting catalogue with the name Optically Visible Open Clusters (OVOC). The text files that come with the download are interesting. They indirectly provide a window upon the debates and differences among professional astronomers today. However, I assume the debates and differences of several decades ago are more difficult to research. It's remarkable that you were able to obtain Per Collinder's papers!
Clear Skies!
Todd
Edited by Man in a Tub (02/20/09 01:15 PM)
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34596
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
I'm quite fascinated by Per Collinder's classification system, i.e., generally Praesepe (M44) or Pleiades (M45). I suspect his classification was based upon, or uniquely derived from, commonly accepted views in astronomical observation and/or research of his period. What were those views? Why classify simply between M44 abd M45? It is just not self-evident to me.
You might try digging up papers by his advisor, Knut Lundmark, to get a sense for how Collinder classified open clusters. My impression from the dissertation (which I've read just once, and that going on two years ago now) is that it was actually Lundmark's scheme, or one that he adapted.
--------------------
Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Thank you very much, Tom.
Sincerely,
Todd
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