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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2109
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: After Messier [Re: BillFerris]
      #2586414 - 08/17/08 11:15 AM

Quote:

Though harsh sounding, it may be that Burnham's time has passed.




I wouldn't put it exactly that way. Classics stay great forever. I recently re-read Homer's Illiad, the earliest book in the Western tradition, with the possible exception of parts of the Old Testament. And you know what? After 2,500 years, the Illiad is still a strong contender for the title of "best book ever written." And it's as fresh and relevant as it was the day it was written.

Likewise, visual astronomy is going to be around forever, deep-sky observing is here to stay, and Burnham's will still be a great book a century from now. But I agree that trying to rewrite it would be a mistake, and even updating the data tables would be misguided. Why not just read Burnham's as is and use more comprehensive and accurate sources for the data?

Quote:

Rather than attempt to re-write or update an established classic, why not strive to be bold? Create a work that celebrates a new frontier of amateur astronomy at the very time when amateurs are ready to embrace and explore something new. But keep in mind, the next frontier of amateur astronomy is not visual observing.




Well said!

--------------------
Tony Flanders

eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs


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Paul_R
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1648
Re: After Messier new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #2586436 - 08/17/08 11:34 AM

I can give you one good reason why... that way an amateur would have it all in one place... all of Burnham's wonderful prose and insights, combined with updated, accurate information.

It would save having to shuffle around to different sources or be forever wondering... "Gee, is this part correct? Is that?"

Maybe the trick is to go about this the other way... take a modern guidebook and add in Burnham's reflections.

For example, the Night Sky Observer's Guide is a wonderful compendium, but is too large for use in the field, and too dry for my tastes. I wish that they would put out a small, 1 volume, ringed version of it, featuring only the best and brightest objects. Add in Burnham's reflections and you'd have something that would make for great reading at the scope and on the couch!

Or, intermingle a mini-NSOG with Walter Scott Houston's observing comments.

Or update Kenneth Glynn Jones's Messier book, which is great for guiding the observer to take a second and third look at the object and has the benefit of being accessible with descriptions of what a mere mortal could see as opposed to others who observe under the darkest Hawaiian skies with the best eyes on the planet. (No names, please! ) Of course, one would want that expanded with the best NGC, too.

I agree with Tony, visual observing will be with us for a long time...


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bper
member


Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Yakima Washington
Re: After Messier new [Re: Paul_R]
      #2587273 - 08/17/08 08:12 PM

Over the years I have treasured my Burnham set of books. I'm not sure how many of you have read the article published in 1997 in the Phoenix Times, but it is well worth reading about Robert Burnhams life. Allow yourself an hour to read it as it is long, but every time I read it I get a little choked up. He was truly a unique person.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-09-25/news/sky-writer/

--------------------
Bruce Perrault

The Cowiche Astronomer
Yakima Astronomical Society
Goldendale Observatory State Park


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Crossen
member


Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
Re: After Messier new [Re: bper]
      #2588061 - 08/18/08 09:30 AM

I'm glad bper brought up that "Phoenix Times" bio of Burnham because it shows the troubles an author is likely to have finding a publisher for that kind of project--whether a comprehensive Burnham-type deep-sky guide, or "just" an update of the Celestial Handbook. The up-front production costs are going to be very high, especially if the photos are printed in better paper: so, no matter how popular and successful the BCH has been, publishers are going to be shy about taking on such a project.

One of the ironies in the of Burnham's story is that one of the publishers he approached turned down the BCH because they claimed they would have to double-check all his data and that would take two years. Also according to the bio, Lowell Observatory itself was worried about errors in their employee's book--though that may well have been from the jealousy of Burnham at Lowell to which the article alludes. But publishers and magazines are certainly not so fastidious about errors in fact or typology today! In a well-written and forceful review of "Star Clusters and How to Observe Them", CN's Don Pensack roundly criticizes the book's author and publisher for their slip-shod editing, leaving even spelling and gramatical errors. Unfortunately that book is not unique: I even see a lot more typos in the technical journals the last few years. Worse, in one book after another, and year after year in the magazines, the SAME errors are repeated ad nauseum about constellation history. Just one example: A recent article in one of the magazines claimed that the zodiac was formed long before 400 BC--something serious scholars stopped believing before the First World War. (Many of its individual constellations are much older, but the zodiac as such was invented around 500 BC in Babylon.)

Thus we can assume that there are few publishers today who would want to spend the money to make a new BCH as scientifically and topographically accurate as Robert Burnham, Jr. made his BCH. Thus I'm afraid that to a certain extent while reading astronomy books and articles we already are in the situation Paul R described above: " . . . forever wondering, 'Gee, is this part correct?' "

As the "Phoenix New Times" article says, there were serious difficulties between Burnham and Dover Publications and Dover stonewalled the reporter. Any author who would contemplate a Celestial Handbook type project would probably want to find out what those problems were. My impressions after reading the bio (which I first did several years ago) was that Robert Burnham Jr. was one of these people too good for this life. From a practical point of view his weakness was that he was not "diversified" as a thinker and writer--But that kind of focus is probably what it takes to write a BCH. He gave us a wonderful gift--but got darned little pleasure out of it.

Craig Crossen


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Lard Greystoke
sage


Reged: 07/27/08
Posts: 203
Loc: Ohio
Re: After Messier new [Re: bper]
      #2588831 - 08/18/08 04:41 PM

Quote:

Over the years I have treasured my Burnham set of books. I'm not sure how many of you have read the article published in 1997 in the Phoenix Times, but it is well worth reading about Robert Burnhams life. Allow yourself an hour to read it as it is long, but every time I read it I get a little choked up. He was truly a unique person.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-09-25/news/sky-writer/




Thanks for the reference. I recall reading a letter by Burnham to S & T about 20 years ago, complaining of his shabby rewards for his labors. The letter was disturbing - although the Handbook was a success, the letter did not show the attitude of a successful man. Thus, sad but not surprised to see his end.

Is the Burnham glass half-full or empty? Given his obvious, probably innate social difficulties, I would have to say that Burnham was very, very lucky to have been born into a relatively advantaged position. He got a lot more recognition and support early on than most nerds with homemade optics ever do. He, and we, were lucky that he was able to get his opus published at all. The odds did not favor it.

Had not Burnham been born into a relatively privileged position, pushy mother and all, chances are he would have vanished just as obscurely without accomplishing anything.

--------------------
Lard Greystoke

10" Odyssey Compact

"With Tantor, the elephant, he made friends. How? Ask me not."


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Crossen
member


Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
Re: After Messier new [Re: Lard Greystoke]
      #2602408 - 08/25/08 11:25 AM

Almost 3 months ago this thread began with Wojo asking, After the Messier list, then what? And here we end up talking about Robert Burnham, Jr. Strange how a man than was so weak in many ways could so imprint his personality on a field--astronomy writing--that there seems to be no way to go past him! I think, though, that this is tied up with the problem with the magazines discussed in another long-running thread. They seem to be at a dead end too.

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GlennLeDrew
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 633
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: After Messier new [Re: Crossen]
      #2603962 - 08/26/08 01:13 AM

Quote:

One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance.
So what's after the Messier list is the real astronomy of the Messier objects. They get more interesting to look at the more you know about them. Has anyone made a list of Messier open clusters by increasing astronomical age? That would make an interesting magazine article, with a photo of each cluster next to its astronomical description: the sequence would show how the appearance of open clusters change as they age. Then, when you're looking at the NGC objects, you could say; "Well heck, this NGC 7789 in Cassiopeia reminds me of M37 in Auriga, which is fairly old--so it must be fairly old too." And you'd be right.
We don't need more observing lists: we need more observing guides that tell us exactly what we're looking at.






A kindred spirit, Craig!

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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stevecoe

*****

Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2131
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: After Messier new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #2604017 - 08/26/08 02:16 AM

Another possibility is the Luginbuhl and Skiff book. They cover the northern sky quite well and cover all the bright objects in the constellations they could see from Flagstaff Arizona. As someone else said about the Night Sky Observer's Guide it is certainly dry reading, but a good reference. If you are looking for a great observing list for the next several years, this will supply it. I don't know if it is still in print, but I am certain that with some work you could find a good copy.

Clear skies;
Steve Coe

--------------------
150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification


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Crossen
member


Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Vienna
Re: After Messier new [Re: stevecoe]
      #2611361 - 08/29/08 08:22 AM

Your mention of the Skiff and Luginbuhl guide reminded me that the Phoenix Times article mentioned Brian Skiff was considering doing an update of Burnham's. That's more than a decade ago, but the project would have taken Brian at least that long. Anybody hear any rumors about this?

This thread certainly proves that there is a need for an updated, reasonably-comprehensive, full-sky observing guide that covers something of both history and astrophysics as well. But, speaking as a writer, I certainly would not embark on such a project, which is likely to take at least ten years, without a contract and an advance; and no publisher would go along with that--especially in the present state of the market (fragmented as it is among so many observing guides) and in the present state of the economy.

Robert Burnham, Jr. started his Handbook as a private project, and only later thought of publishing it. It will take that same kind of private initiative, dedication, and raw curiosity for a "new" Burnham's" to be written. But, given Burnham's experience, we cannot expect such a writer's bio to end, " . . . and he lived happily ever after."

Meanwhile, all that the ordinary observer can do is draw information out of several different books, each with their own strengths and weaknesses and with data that is out-of-date, and constellation history that is incorrect, to varying degrees.

Craig Crossen


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