Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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In addition to my extended viewing of Jupiter last night I also spent some time looking at M13.
The first time I saw it through the scope I could only make out a fuzzy sphere, no individual stars resolved. This time with slightly darker skies and more time spent looking I was able to see some stars resolved @ 154x with averted vision. @ 256x M13 looked very odd, almost spooky, like a living organism!
As I watched the dim central core drift across the field, stars winked in and out around it. It had almost a 3D quality to it and was very surreal!
So in this case, having less aperture and resolution made for a very interesting sight.
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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amys
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/12/06
Posts: 1757
Loc: Groton, CT
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Dylan: I had a similar experience a few weeks ago when I was out with my 4" refractor. I had just gotten my Nagler 3-6mm zoom and tried it out on M13. It really did have a 3-D look to it. I couldn't spend alot of time observing it though because it was so uncomfortable with the scope pointing at the zenith and the eyepiece so low. I'm eager to try that combination again when M13 is a little lower in the sky because it was really one of the most interesting views of M13 that I've had.
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Amy
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bconley
super member
Reged: 05/28/08
Posts: 183
Loc: New Boston, New Hampshire
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I must be very spoiled already with my 10" dob...I see a lot of folks mention using averted vision to resolve stars in M13 and I have to admit, the very first time I saw it, I was completely blown away at just how many stars I could see...It really was breathtaking to look at it and realize that each one of those dots was a star burning millions and millions of miles away....
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Now the proud owner of an Orion XT10 Intelliscope!
I set a course just east of Lyra
And Northwest of Pegasus
Flew into the light of Deneb
Sailed across the Milky Way
On my ship the Rocinante
Wheeling through the Galaxy
Headed for the heart of Cygnus
Headlong into mystery!
Rush, Cygnus X-1, 1977
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kaaikop
sage
Reged: 07/13/08
Posts: 459
Loc: Ste-Therese, Canada
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M13 was my very first DS object, looked at it in a friend's 12.5 Dob. I fell on my behind!
Then I looked at it in my 9.25, not that much different actually.
I think it depends a lot on which eyepiece you are using.
My best view of M13 is with the 12mm Radian (200x), I could spend the night glued to my eyepiece... 
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Benoit, RASC Montreal
-C 9.25XLT on EQ6 Pro / ED80SF on Portamount
-Plossls, Radians, Naglers, LVW's & Orthos.
-a pair of 7x50's
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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Amy, how does it look in your 7" Mak? Can you make out the stars easily? And I'm beginning to see the allure of a zoom eyepiece. I think M13 would have looked best somewhere between 154x and 256x.
Monday night I saw it in a 10" Newtonian. The seeing conditions were pretty poor, but it looked beautiful and the stars were easily seen with direct vision. That was the first time I saw a globular as anything but a "glob". Now I can see it as more than a glob in my own scope.
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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Silicon Owl
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 932
Loc: Waimea, Hawaii
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Seeing is the key. With steady air and good seeing a nice glob like M13 is sharp and full of stars, with poor seeing a globular can come alive, with the stars seeming to move and flash. Maybe just an effect of the atmosphere, but the results can be truly weird if conditions are right.
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Andrew Cooper
Personal Website and CN Gallery
Handmade 18" Dob / NS11GPS / 6" RFT / 90mm APO / TV-76 ...and a twin 10m
"I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." --Sarah Williams
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Brooklyn
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 870
Loc: Central New Jersey
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Many light giving objects will look strange and spooky through a telescope, since you are constantly changing the focus, and when you turn up magnification you are losing resolution and detail. That can make any image look weird, unnatural, or spooky. All this is, is the light trying to come through your weirdly placed optical path, that's why it gets distorted into a spooky ghost as some people sometimes see.
I never look at DSOs past 160-250x. Anything over that magnification for my area would just degrade the image. You should stop mangifying once you get to that point where you can still see individual dots in the globular. and the image isnt too dark or undetailed to just make the entire thing look like a blob.
If m13 looks like a blob to you, back off on magnfication. Even in bad seeing and light pollution you can still see most globulars, but you need trained eyes to pick up the finer details.
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Meade 8.25"(209.55mm) LX-90 EMC (SCT)
Albert Einstein =>
“Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death.”
“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
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Bill Weir
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 879
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Also this could have to do with the amount of time you spent looking at the objects, along with the number of times you have looked at the object. "The more you observe, the more you observe". Each time you observe an object you might notice more about it. The longer the time spent observing that object will also tease out more detail.
I used to race around the sky trying to capture as many objects in a night as I could. (like who am I trying to impress) Now I find myself lingering on each object for a great deal of time. I'll be changing magnifications, filters and sometimes even scopes to drink it all in. With my observing session notes I find my objects viewed number has decreased dramatically, but the extent of my notes has dramatically increased. I also seem to feel so relaxed and at one with the universe while I'm packing up. It's pure magic.
Don't worry about whether you can see as much with your scope as someone else can with a bigger scope. Glean all you can with what you have. I'm willing to bet that when you do go to the eyepiece of someone elses bigger scope you will probably notice more than that person might.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar II ED Doublet
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2007, 171.
So far in 2008, 108
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amys
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/12/06
Posts: 1757
Loc: Groton, CT
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M13 does not have the "wow" factor in my 7" mak that I was hoping for. It seemed to be noticeably brighter in the 8" SCT I had. But I can definitely resolve stars. M13 was very impressive in a 10" dob last night.
M22 in the Mak was pretty impressive last night with stars in the foreground (or so they appeared) resolved against the dark body of the rest, if that makes sense. My maximum magnification last night was 200X. If fact, I don't think I've tried for anything higher.
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Amy
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2047
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
As I watched the dim central core drift across the field, stars winked in and out around it. It had almost a 3D quality to it and was very surreal!
Yes, that's one of the things that makes globular clusters so appealing. The winking is particularly obvious with small apertures, where the cluster is barely resolvable at all. But it keeps happening with every aperture. No matter how big your scope, globular clusters always offer tons of stars just at the limit of visibility.
Click here to see what a globular cluster would look like through a really big scope -- without any nasty air to make the image fuzzy.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2047
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Seeing is the key. With steady air and good seeing a nice glob like M13 is sharp and full of stars, with poor seeing a globular can come alive, with the stars seeming to move and flash. Maybe just an effect of the atmosphere ...
No, I don't think this has anything to do with the atmosphere; in fact, it's more pronounced when the seeing is good. It's the effect of averted vision as you scan across the face of the cluster. Wherever you're looking, the faint stars disappear, only to reappear as you look away from them.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Silicon Owl
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 932
Loc: Waimea, Hawaii
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Averted vision is good for optical tricks too, there is a reason the Blinking Nebula (NGC6826) is called that...
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Andrew Cooper
Personal Website and CN Gallery
Handmade 18" Dob / NS11GPS / 6" RFT / 90mm APO / TV-76 ...and a twin 10m
"I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." --Sarah Williams
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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Quote:
It's the effect of averted vision as you scan across the face of the cluster. Wherever you're looking, the faint stars disappear, only to reappear as you look away from them.
That explains it perfectly. I think the effect was also more pronounced because I don't have a motor drive. At high power the cluster was moving pretty quickly through the field of view.
I can't wait to see it again tonight!
(And that Hubble shot is astonishing! Imagine living on a planet around one of those stars...)
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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Quote:
M22 in the Mak was pretty impressive last night with stars in the foreground (or so they appeared) resolved against the dark body of the rest, if that makes sense.
That makes perfect sense. That's what gave me the 3D effect last night. The stars I was resolving looked like they were floating in front of the core.
(And I'll have to add M22 to my list as well. I googled it after I read your post.)
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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amys
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/12/06
Posts: 1757
Loc: Groton, CT
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there's loads of good stuff in that area of the sky. And be sure to check out M5 and M92 as well. M92 is right near M13 and is smaller but for me is easier to resolve into stars. It really sparkles.
Dylan: I recommend the book, Deep Sky Companions: The Messier Catalog. The author gives really comprehensive descriptions of each object and includes both a B&W photo and his own drawing. It has really helped me "see" stuff and recognize faint objects when they're in the eyepiece.
Also, did you order the stuff to transform your mount into a tracking mount? you'll be able to see so much more if you can just sit and look.
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Amy
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ultrahertz
journeyman
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan
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Quote:
In addition to my extended viewing of Jupiter last night I also spent some time looking at M13.
The first time I saw it through the scope I could only make out a fuzzy sphere, no individual stars resolved. This time with slightly darker skies and more time spent looking I was able to see some stars resolved @ 154x with averted vision. @ 256x M13 looked very odd, almost spooky, like a living organism!
As I watched the dim central core drift across the field, stars winked in and out around it. It had almost a 3D quality to it and was very surreal!
So in this case, having less aperture and resolution made for a very interesting sight.
I have found that in observing globulars like M13 in my 8 in F5 reflector that they will suddenly resolve much better after 3-4 seconds of holding my head steady viewing so as not to touch the eyepiece. I think as I am centering the object in the eyepiece and/or focusing, the scope shakes just enough to blur the resolution for a few seconds, even though I can't perceive the shaking in the eyepiece. Then the resolved globular pops in. The effect is not so profound for me on brighter objects. I wonder if some of the vision in the retina is integrating a little bit longer for dim objects.
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10406
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
In addition to my extended viewing of Jupiter last night I also spent some time looking at M13.
The first time I saw it through the scope I could only make out a fuzzy sphere, no individual stars resolved. This time with slightly darker skies and more time spent looking I was able to see some stars resolved @ 154x with averted vision. @ 256x M13 looked very odd, almost spooky, like a living organism!
As I watched the dim central core drift across the field, stars winked in and out around it. It had almost a 3D quality to it and was very surreal!
So in this case, having less aperture and resolution made for a very interesting sight.
Even though I can resolve plenty of stars with my 10", I still get the same feeling when I look at M-13 using high power. The "living organism" impression is a strong one -- almost like a glittery stellar amoeba.
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5300
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Tonight I was up at Lick Observatory (near San Jose, CA) as a volunteer at one of their concert nights. Several of us had our telescopes set up outside for the concert goers to look through. They also get to look through the great 36" refractor and 40" reflector.
Jupiter was showing very nice detail. Around midnight I took a look at M13 with my AP 155mm f/7 APO refractor. It was showing lots of stars. I'm not sure which eyepiece I had in the scope. It may have been my 10.5mm Pentax SMC-XL. Which ever eyepiece it was it gave one of the nicest views of M13 I've seen in that telescope.
Rich
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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Quote:
The "living organism" impression is a strong one -- almost like a glittery stellar amoeba.
"Steller amoeba" is a perfect description!
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 946
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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Quote:
Also, did you order the stuff to transform your mount into a tracking mount? you'll be able to see so much more if you can just sit and look.
Yep, I finally ordered the tracking motor. I almost bought the kit with RA and DEC motors but in the end I went with just the RA. I used the extra $50 to get a right angle, correct image finder. I'm having real trouble locating objects overhead with the standard finder.
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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