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Parker Nite Fly
member


Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 99
sky gets brighter during night
      #2598824 - 08/23/08 02:44 PM

Anyone else notice this? Early after it gets dark I see lots of naked eye stars but after a couple hours there seems to be less. I am guessing that the summer humidity around here is the culprit. OTOH my scope isn't covered with moisture so I don't know.

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Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)


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star drop
Guilty as Charged
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Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 2709
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2598843 - 08/23/08 02:56 PM

If you mean the during past few nights the brightening of the sky may be due to the moon getting ready to rise. Increased relative humidity can result in fine droplets forming in the atmosphere that will reflect light pollution back down to the ground making the sky appear brighter. This condensation can occur up higher in the air and you would not be getting dew at ground level.

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Ted

25" Tectron F/5 Original Naglers 9,13 & 20 mm T2, 30 mm Meade UWA, TV 32 mm Widefield , Ethos 25 mm
Orion 10x70 binoculars


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Parker Nite Fly
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Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 99
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: star drop]
      #2598863 - 08/23/08 03:07 PM

I did not mean getting lighter due to the moon. Your upper atmosphere explanation makes sense. I thought it was my imagination. It didn't make sense that as my eyes adjusted to moving around under starry skies that there should be less in the sky to see. Of course it is not noticable through the scope so increased sky glow makes sense. We usually have reasonable 5-6 mag skies.

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Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)


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Parker Nite Fly
member


Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 99
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2599045 - 08/23/08 05:26 PM

This is interesting...

I was reading through Stephen Saber's astronomy blog and he mentions a similar observation.

Quoting him " After being under beautiful dark skies for 4 or 5 hours, one might take a break from the eyepiece and notice that the sky and especially the surroundings look brighter. The black just isn't so black anymore Even those 7+ mag skies that begin as *pitch-black* lose their aesthetic contrast after hours of dark adaptation. But our eyes are only doing what they're supposed to. The rods are in overdrive and the cones are doing their best to catch up.
The ability to read and walk safely by the Milky Way's skyglow alone is a common sign of hyper-adaptation.
"

OK except for his 7+mag skies, which I can't even imagine, this sounds like what I have been experiencing. Next time I need to verify that there really are less stars or if hyper-adaptation is the explanation.

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Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)


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Brooklyn
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 870
Loc: Central New Jersey
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2599096 - 08/23/08 06:05 PM

Quote:

Anyone else notice this? Early after it gets dark I see lots of naked eye stars but after a couple hours there seems to be less. I am guessing that the summer humidity around here is the culprit. OTOH my scope isn't covered with moisture so I don't know.




humidity? no man....its all about the moon and dark adaptation...nothing else. Humidity or transparency doesn't have much to do with how bright the sky is.

For the past 3-7 nights from 9pm-11pm it has been 5/5 Darkness. When 11pm comes, the moon is like 1/2 way risen in the sky but still getting blocked by trees.

Your dark eye adaptation at this point is completely adapted unless you have annoying lights in your back yard or observing site.

Since at 11pm your dark adaptation is so high....the light from the moon appears much brighter when it hits the air and causes "sky glow". This is just a natural form of light pollution.

The moon always washes out details in the sky, its better when its not there.

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Meade 8.25"(209.55mm) LX-90 EMC (SCT)

Albert Einstein =>
“Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death.”
“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”


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StarStuff1
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 428
Loc: East Tennessee
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2599098 - 08/23/08 06:06 PM

Could be a combo of both.

The first time I noticed this effect was when I was a kid in rural Louisiana. We would play all kinds of outdoor games such as "Soldiers on Patrol, Cowboys and Indians, Hide and Seek", etc. Of course we would play as late as our parents would allow. Almost no one had flashlights. I soon found out that if you kept your eyes dark adapted you could see pretty decent without artificial lighting.

Some of the other kids could not see in the dark as well as I could. I told them I had "Superman eyes". Years later when I had an Army flight physical and my eyes were really examined thoroughly I was told that my vision was exceptional, especially my night vision.

Today my 60+ year old eyes aren't near as good but I still can see the effect of my surroundings "getting lighter" after a couple of hours in the dark. Many other observing buds have made similar comments.

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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.


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Hrundi
super member


Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 107
Loc: Estonia
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #2599463 - 08/23/08 10:44 PM

It could also be a matter of contrast. When it first gets dark, it's a bit of a culture shock for us light inhabitants, but over time we get used to it, and thus it appears less spectacular, less bright.

That's just been my running theory though.

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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2047
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2618717 - 09/02/08 10:41 AM

Quote:

Anyone else notice this? Early after it gets dark I see lots of naked eye stars but after a couple hours there seems to be less.




My diagnosis is exhaustion. Your eyes are getting tired, that's all.

Obviously, conditions can change over the course of a night for numerous reasons. But at most sites, there's no reasons that they should systematically deteriorate after dark. In fact, when light pollution is an issue, skies invariably get darker throughout the night as people turn their lights off.

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Tony Flanders

eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs


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Lamb0
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Reged: 07/25/07
Posts: 668
Loc: Fairbury, Nebraska
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Parker Nite Fly]
      #2620642 - 09/03/08 06:17 AM

Quote:

I was reading through Stephen Saber's astronomy blog and he mentions a similar observation.

Quoting him " After being under beautiful dark skies for 4 or 5 hours, one might take a break from the eyepiece and notice that the sky and especially the surroundings look brighter. The black just isn't so black anymore Even those 7+ mag skies that begin as *pitch-black* lose their aesthetic contrast after hours of dark adaptation. But our eyes are only doing what they're supposed to. The rods are in overdrive and the cones are doing their best to catch up.
The ability to read and walk safely by the Milky Way's skyglow alone is a common sign of hyper-adaptation.
"




Hyper-adaptation is a common occurence at the Nebraska Star Party with ZVLM 7.54 skies a common occurrence as verified by David Knisely and myself - not bad for a couple of 50-somethings! It almost seems like a let-down sometimes when you lose dark adaptation due to Jupiter. Our Prairie Astronomy Club President rides his bicycle between his camp site and the observing site using NO lights without a problem. The sky's so bright ya gotta wear (Red) shades!

John

--------------------
John "Have eyepiece - will travel!"

8" f/5 Dob w/2.14" sec in a 12" alum tube 'The Mortar' - w/PCorr 2° TFoV @ 36.5X ~70% illum *NICE*
Typical eyepieces: 32 Burg, 24 Pan, 20T5, 5-8 SW, Others ALL 2": Pcorr, 2X PwrMt, Ast H-b, Lum UHC + OIII
60mm $50 Walmart Special in training - aka "Backpack Observatory"
Minolta Activa 12x50 , Steiner 15X80


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Parker Nite Fly
member


Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 99
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Lamb0]
      #2621878 - 09/03/08 04:54 PM

Quote:

Hyper-adaptation is a common occurence at the Nebraska Star Party with ZVLM 7.54 skies a common occurrence as verified by David Knisely and myself - not bad for a couple of 50-somethings! It almost seems like a let-down sometimes when you lose dark adaptation due to Jupiter. Our Prairie Astronomy Club President rides his bicycle between his camp site and the observing site using NO lights without a problem. The sky's so bright ya gotta wear (Red) shades!

John




As a fellow 50 something I would love the experience of losing hyper-adaptation to sky glow from Jupiter. I can't even imagine it! Mag 5+ seems pretty dark. You guys would consider that a really bad night.

My recent experience with poor seeing conditions - see my disappointing session thread - made it obvious that what I was pointing out in this thread is due to hyper-adaptation and not the sky conditions actually changing.

--------------------
Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)


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ischua
member


Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Franklinville New York
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Brooklyn]
      #2622227 - 09/03/08 08:11 PM

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Water vapor or water vapour (see spelling differences), also aqueous vapor, is the gas phase of water. Water vapor is one state of the water cycle within the hydrosphere.[2] Water vapor can be produced from the evaporation of liquid water or from the sublimation of ice. Under normal atmospheric conditions,[3] water vapor is continuously generated by evaporation and removed by condensation.

In the cold air (like after the sun goes down)water vapor quickly condenses, thus showing up as a fog or mist of water droplets blocking seeing and as condensation or frost on cold surface As the temperature rises the proportion water vapor in the air increases, its buoyancy will become larger. This increase in buoyancy can have a signicant atmospheric impact

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Meade 2080
32mm Orion Highlight
25mm Meade,9mm Meade
20mm Zhumell WA, 15mm Zhumell WA
17mm Hyperion
Denk Power Switch, Telrad, Dewbuster Controler




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Exit-pupil
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Reged: 11/13/07
Posts: 180
Loc: Eastern Long Island, NY
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: ischua]
      #2622499 - 09/03/08 10:40 PM

I'm glad Parker Nite Fly brought this up. Last September or October (2007) I noticed the same thing. It wasn't that late, maybe 10 PM, and the sky brightened. It was really quite stunning, like where did the sky go? There was no moon.

I live in a fairly dark town and wondered if the ballfields were lit up, even though the season was over at that point. I actually got in my car and drove all over town looking for the source of the light. All the ballfields were dark and deserted.

It might be some kind of skyglow or zodiacal light, or something else.

I don't think it's a result of dark adaption, because that would happen every night, and I haven't seen it since.

Jono


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Lamb0
professor emeritus
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Reged: 07/25/07
Posts: 668
Loc: Fairbury, Nebraska
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Exit-pupil]
      #2622989 - 09/04/08 08:20 AM

Quote:

"In the cold air (like after the sun goes down)water vapor quickly condenses, thus showing up as a fog or mist of water droplets blocking seeing..."

and

"I live in a fairly dark town and wondered if the ballfields were lit up, even though the season was over at that point."




Unfortunately, that happens far more often where I live!


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Silicon Owl
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Reged: 11/25/05
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Loc: Waimea, Hawaii
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Lamb0]
      #2623675 - 09/04/08 02:21 PM

I more than agree with the dark adaptation. I spent last Saturday night under Mag 7.5 skies, and after a while they do seem quite bright, even after that annoyingly bright planet began to set. In my case I know it is not increased water vapor in the sky, as the local conditions cause the air to get much drier as the night wears on, the humid tropical air recedes down the mountain side as it cools and it gets very dry. Heavy dewing conditions that trouble us after dark often disappear and dry up after a few hours.

As long as you avoid any light and allow proper dark adaptation the effect is always noticeable.

--------------------
Andrew Cooper

Personal Website and CN Gallery
Handmade 18" Dob / NS11GPS / 6" RFT / 90mm APO / TV-76 ...and a twin 10m
"I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." --Sarah Williams


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Zebra24601
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Loc: San Gabriel Valley, CA 91770
Re: sky gets brighter during night new [Re: Silicon Owl]
      #2624171 - 09/04/08 06:38 PM

This probably depends a lot on the atmospheric conditions where you are. Where I observe, moisture in the air is not an issue. It's just dark adaptation that makes the sky appear less dark later in the night. When the Milky Way rising looks like a cloud bank moving in, I know I've got pretty dark skies.

When I'm at a dark sky location (either Joshua Tree or Mt. Pinos), the only thing I need a flashlight for is when I'm inside of the restrooms, or if I'm trying to read a star chart. I definitely don't need a flashlight for walking around the parking lot.

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Zebra24601

Meade 8" SCT w/UHTC * Celestron 100ED * Celestron C11 * Barska 15x70 binoculars
Meade LXD55 mount * Orion Sirius goto mount * Bushnell Voyager 4.5" Compact Reflector


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