|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
I'd love to hear others discuss this. I've always been willing to sacrifice a bit of detail for a more natural look. In all of my images I post, I promise you that you can sharpen them up further to get sharper detail, but you will then have a great increase in noise which means no natural appearance. They way I handle it is I use Registax, usually just 1 wavelet to process my images and I push it to the point to where I can see just a bit of noise, or the "speckles" as our resident guru Paul calls it. I then take the result from Registax, speckles and all, and open it in PSP8. Now I've tried every type of noise filter that PSP has, but they always go too far and blur things up a bit too much. The best I have found after many years and hours of practicing processing is PSP's "Soft Focus" feature. This will let you blur up your images by the tinest of increments. I can usually get rid of the speckles w/o losing any sharpness with this feature. For other PSP users, I usually have mine set to 32, but it all depends on how much noise you start with. And, I even go back and resharpen sometimes after soft focus to see if I can get some detail back w/o the noise. But, the less processing overall the better in my opinion. Just thought I would share how I battle noise. I know my images don't compare to many on here, but I'm pretty happy with my results for an 8 inch scope. And, what I think is a good finished result might not be to others. Opinions are like, well, you know, every one has them. But for those who like my processing technique, that is how I battle noise. I'd love to hear other's techniques.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
isramirez
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/05
Posts: 762
Loc: Mexico City
|
|
Joel,
I previously posted here this picture using only 1st wavelet
Then i reprocessed to this
Where i used layers 1 and 2 plus LR deconvultion... i believe in that way i can get a bit of extradetail without adding extra noise....
cheers!
-------------------- Santel MK91 & MK6
IntesMicro 715
Celestron SCT6 & ONIX80 EDF
Meade SN6 & AR6
Chinese 6in MakCass.Gregory
DBK + DMK + NexImage + LPI
CG-5 & LXD75 Mounts
many EP's, Barlows and Binoviewers
Great astronomic passion
|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
Ah, I forgot to mention more about the wavelets. I don't use Registax to process the avi. As I mentioned before, I use K3ccd to sort/stack the frames. When seeing is good, I usually do 1000 frames or so. I then save what K3ccd comes up with as a 32bit FIT file. Gives me a R,G and B file. Then I use registax to stack those. And, with the wavelets, this is where I differ than most. I just prefer the settings of Dyadic and Default. I turn off wavelets 3 and 4, leave the others on. I then use wavelet 2 to bring out the detail Typically between 25 and 32. I've tried every wavelet combination imaginable, but this just happens to be the scheme I prefer. And, I like the overall technique because I have a finshed result from about 20 minutes after I first start capture.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
Here is what I refer to as the noise I create in Registax, that I will get rid of in PSP. This still has more processing to go, but I figured this is a good example.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
isramirez
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/05
Posts: 762
Loc: Mexico City
|
|
Quote:
Ah, I forgot to mention more about the wavelets. I don't use Registax to process the avi. As I mentioned before, I use K3ccd to sort/stack the frames. When seeing is good, I usually do 1000 frames or so. I then save what K3ccd comes up with as a 32bit FIT file. Gives me a R,G and B file. Then I use registax to stack those. And, with the wavelets, this is where I differ than most. I just prefer the settings of Dyadic and Default. I turn off wavelets 3 and 4, leave the others on. I then use wavelet 2 to bring out the detail Typically between 25 and 32. I've tried every wavelet combination imaginable, but this just happens to be the scheme I prefer. And, I like the overall technique because I have a finshed result from about 20 minutes after I first start capture.
Very interesting... going to try K3CCDtools with FIT files tonight
|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
Here is the comparison after a bit of PSP's Soft Focus.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
Tom Polakis
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 551
Loc: Tempe, Arizona
|
|
Quote:
Here is the comparison after a bit of PSP's Soft Focus.
Joel,
That's a great pair of comparison images to show what Soft Focus does for you. I don't see any loss of detail. I'm going to give it a try.
I use Despeckle in PS, and as you say, it goes too far. But as a second step, I then "Fade Despeckle" with the slider until the detail comes back. I don't know why the despeckle can't be adjusted by a slider in the first step.
Tom
-------------------- Tom Polakis
Tempe, AZ
Visual observing, DSLR photography, lunar & planetary imaging
http://www.pbase.com/polakis/
|
Bart Declercq
super member
   
Reged: 01/21/07
Posts: 161
Loc: Haaltert, Belgium
|
|
One thing I've recently "discovered" (but which may already be known to others, I'm not sure) is that in Registax, the settings of the higher wavelet layers influence the following layers. If you increase the wavelet parameter, but leave it set to 1.0, then move the slider on the lower wavelet slider, you reduce the amount of noise while practically not influencing the amount of detail (both detail reduction and noise reduction are quite subtle, but the detail reduction is clearly less than the noise reduction, so it's a net improvement.)
Find in attachment an example. This shows two Registax Layer settings (nothing else was touched, this is a 256/5000 frame stack of Copernicus at F/24 in the C9.25)
The red/green image is generated by clicking on the slider-value in registax and holding the mouse button. It shows the subtle noise reduction when the first layer is at 0.13 rather than 0.10 (notice that the first slider value remains 1.0, while the second slider is 50.0 in both images).
The second image is the picture as it is in Registax, the noise reduction is visible, but not extreme.
The third image is an unsharp mask of the image in Photoshop (Amount 200%, Radius 2.0, Threshold 0) which shows the very obvious improvement this provides in image quality when doing post processing, while I'm pretty sure the detail loss is absolutely minimal.
The unwaveletted stack is shown at the bottom (although obviously, this is an 8-bit jpeg, while the original stack has about 16-bits worth of grayscale).
I'm now using this method for 90% of my lunar images, usually in a slightly reduced form (I typically use a value of 0.11 (1.0) for my first lst layer and 0.10 (50.0) for my second layer, with the "Initial Layer" parameter at 2. This is giving me excellent results, combining this with Tony Gondola's High Pass Filter Processing technique and very slight noise reduction - default Photoshop Noise reduction, strength at 1 or 2 (rarely higher) and Preserve Details and Sharpen Details both at 10%.
It's only on occasions where the seeing wasn't all that great and I need a little more Oomph that I play further with the Registax parameters, to pull more detail out of the image. But this usually signals that I've lost my battle with the seeing, and it never delivers results anywhere near my better results.
The same trick can be applied to planets, but there usually I need to use other wavelet settings (but similar in concept)
Bart
|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
Quote:
Very interesting... going to try K3CCDtools with FIT files tonight
Make sure you save the "blurry" result K3ccd gives you as a FIT file. Don't do any more adjustment in K3ccd, as in unsharp mask. Registax will take the blurry R, G and B and give you a color version at which time you can use the wavelets to bring out the detail after you stack them.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
iceman
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4359
Loc: Gosford, Australia
|
|
If despeckle in Photoshop goes too far, then first duplicate the layer, do the despeckle on the new layer, and set the opacity of that layer to 50%.
I use a combination of noise reduction using Noiseware Professional, despeckle and/or dust/scratches, and ME deconvolution to control noise.
-------------------- Mike
. mikesalway.com.au - Astronomy and Photography by Mike Salway
. IceInSpace - The Australian Amateur Astronomy Community
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
|
Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
|
|
For some reason, in Paint Shop Pro, I can see no difference at all when trying to use "despeckle". I need to break down and buy Photoshop, but since I've gotten real used to Paint Shop, I'm hesitant to switch at this point.
-------------------- Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
Mike Phillips
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 02/21/06
Posts: 712
Loc: Swift Creek, NC - 35.682 N, 78...
|
|
Tons of blur tools in lots of software pacakges too. I've happened upon Iris's blur and it seems to allow for LOTS of 'blurring' without much visible data/detail loss. This is an important thing to look for and I recall lots of folks using the ol' Gauss Blur in PS and other tools I'm sure. Also you may want to look at a more sensitive camera with higher SNR, especially if you feel you can't get the right amount of data out of your optics. That, of course, comes at a much higher cost than software in most cases. I do recall hearing the likes of Damian Peach say the highest percentage of quality starts with acquisition and not processing. Can't replace good data.
Mike
-------------------- Home:
http://maphilli14.multiply.com/
VIDEO HowTo: Planetary Processing Routine v7
http://maphilli14.multiply.com/journal/item/37/Michael_A._Phillips_Planetary_Processing_Routine_version_7.0
|
Dave440
sage
Reged: 11/19/05
Posts: 446
Loc: So. FL
|
|
I haven't used K3CCD before and am a photoshop newb. I use Registax4 to process frames and then adjust color and exposure parameters with Irfan view image viewer/editor. For noise reduction I use Neat Image. You can download it for free but if you want to retain EXIF data you have to buy it. Least it used to be that way a couple years ago.
With Neat image you can have it make auto profiles based on your source image and then tailor the parameters if you want including sharpening. You can precisely decide how much softness vs noise reduction you want and see the results before you save. You can save your custom noise reduction profiles. There is also a database already built in for various digital cameras and ISO profiles. If I recall, camera profiles database is a seperate plug in file folder you download seperately from the main program.
Below is my latest Jupiter series. You can see results with and without Neat image. Version 1 and 2 just indicates different versions with my custom noise reduction settings.
|
Andreas
member
Reged: 11/22/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Chesapeake Beach, Maryland
|
|
I'm generally fairly aggressive with Registax( if I can use a lot of frames) to get the detail the way I want it. I then use Photoshop 7 to despeckle it. Before I despeckle it though I resize the picture 200 to 300 %. This seems to preserve quite a bit of the detail. When I'm satisfied I resize back to the original size. Sometimes I'll despeckle it again and then use the fade despeckle to get it to a point I like.
Andreas
-------------------- DSOs Observed
NGCs 1237, ICs 60, Other DSOs 62, Palomar GCs 5, Abell PNs 11
CPC 1100
Nexstar 8
Celestron 15x70 Skymasters
55mm TV Plossl, 35mm Panoptic
20mm Type 2, 16mm Type 5
11mm Type 6, 7mm Type 6
|
jonbosley
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/19/05
Posts: 540
Loc: Texas
|
|
One of the main problems with astro processing software is that they apply their routines to the whole image.
One thing that you can do in Photoshop is selective blurring & sharpening. Using the magic wand you can for example select the floor of a crater and slightly blur it if it has been over sharpened, then select the central mountain peak and sharpen it. You can do the same for Jupiter by sharpening the red spot and leave the rest of the planet with less sharpening. If you just have one or two areas of speckling these can be selected and lightly blurred while the rest of the image is unaffected. This works for all the main filters, including highpass filters & unsharp masks. The only down side is you tend to spend hours fiddling with small parts of an image - when is a painting ever finished.
Jon
Edited by jonbosley (08/26/08 06:27 PM)
|
Mick Hyde
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 11/22/06
Posts: 890
Loc: Swindon, UK
|
|
Quote:
For some reason, in Paint Shop Pro, I can see no difference at all when trying to use "despeckle".
Try the "Edge Preserving Smoothing Filter" in PSP, works quite well if you keep the value really low.
-------------------- Mick.
http://astromick.blogspot.com http://mickhyde.googlepages.com Swindon CSC
Celestron 9.25 XLT, Canon EOS 400D, DMK21AF04AS.
Edited by Mick Hyde (08/26/08 07:31 PM)
|
|
12 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 458
|
|
|
|
|
|
|