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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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The Supercollider was shot down as much because of regional political rivalries, and a sense of zero-sum resentments, as from any rational analysis about potential scientific benefit. Of the latter, I'm not convinced that there was any.
Nor according to one of your favorite sources of information: Look Here
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Anyway, grousing about the cost of construction seems kind of sour-grapes-ish after construction is already complete and they're in the process of turning it on.
Well, gee whiz Dave. A fait accompli justifies anything doesn't it? As I said before, science at any cost?
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
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astrotrf
sage
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 287
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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When did I suggest that "gains in fundamental scientific knowledge have no inherent societal benefit."?
That happened when you said: "... the gains in knowledge may be so esoterical as to have no effect on the society at large ..."
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The Super Collider was shot down by our congress years ago because they felt the expense was not justified.
Actually, the article you cited in your rejoinder to Dave pretty much tallies with what *he* said. The project was over budget, but that didn't cause a rational scientific analysis of cost/benefit -- the cancellation was a politically-motivated action.
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Investing in science can be a good thing. But you don't invest in just anything because it is labelled "science". Medicine is science. Why not put the expense of the LHC towards medicine?
Now you're changing your argument. You were first arguing that the scientific results of LHC might be minimal and therefore not enough to justify the expense. You've been shown that the expense is actually minimal in comparison to the overall economy of the EU, and several folks have pointed out that your point about the possibility of little or no scientific value returned is not supported by historical precedent.
*Now* you're saying, "well, the money might better be spent elsewhere". That's an entirely different topic. In an honest discussion, it's only fair to concede your opponent's point (or refute it) rather than simply going off in a tangential direction without comment.
In direct answer to your question, I'd just point out that vast amounts of money are *already* going into medical research. There's nothing wrong with spending money on more than one research area at a time.
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Terry (astrotrf)
Edited by astrotrf (08/24/08 01:44 AM)
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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Quote:
That happened when you said: "... the gains in knowledge may be so esoterical as to have no effect on the society at large ..."
I thought I was specific at the beginning that we were discussing the LHC and that statement was addressing the LHC. If you think that I'm against scientific research in general you're wrong.
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*Now* you're saying, "well, the money might better be spent elsewhere". That's an entirely different topic. In an honest discussion, it's only fair to concede your opponent's point (or refute it) rather than simply going off in a tangential direction without comment.
Inherent in any discussion about how and where you allocate resources for a particular project is where those resources will go if you don't approve that project. If you remember I used the term "law of diminishing returns" at the very beginning of this discussion. Inherent in that is the economic aspects of the LHD project and it is not a tangential issue.
The economic aspect of this project and large projects in general had already entered the discussion before you had your "tangential" revelation.
BTW, if I were to refute or concede to, every argument on this thread that ran counter to my thoughts on this I'd be up for a few days. But in the interest of the comity of this thread I will leave you with this:
$$Physics$$
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
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astrotrf
sage
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 287
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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[
I thought I was specific at the beginning that we were discussing the LHC and that statement was addressing the LHC.
Of course.
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BTW, if I were to refute or concede to, every argument on this thread that ran counter to my thoughts on this I'd be up for a few days.
I apologize. I thought you were interested in a back-and-forth discussion of the points you raised. Such a discussion need not have done any violence to the comity of this thread, which has been excellent so far. If all you're interested in is just telling everyone what you think without considering counterargument, you might have just stated that up front. This has been an interesting discussion, but I won't bother to comment further.
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Terry (astrotrf)
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10477
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
The Supercollider was shot down as much because of regional political rivalries, and a sense of zero-sum resentments, as from any rational analysis about potential scientific benefit. Of the latter, I'm not convinced that there was any.
Nor according to one of your favorite sources of information: Look Here
How does that disagree with anything I said? It has a somewhat different perspective, but no contradiction. Not that it makes me an expert, but I was involved in a small way in the groundwork for that project -- literally -- and there were factors that neither Wikipedia nor I have mentioned. No doubt it was a challenging and difficult project, and there were setbacks that contributed to the cost. But whether it would have been worthwhile or not in the final analysis has little to do with the grumble that it might not "change your life".
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Anyway, grousing about the cost of construction seems kind of sour-grapes-ish after construction is already complete and they're in the process of turning it on.
Well, gee whiz Dave. A fait accompli justifies anything doesn't it? As I said before, science at any cost?
How is it a fait accompli? Nobody snuck this thing in through the back door. There was plenty of time for opposition before the money was spent on it. The thing was discussed, criticized, modified, and negotiated for years before it was built. So what's YOUR preference? Cancelation at any cost?
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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How is it a fait accompli? Nobody snuck this thing in through the back door. There was plenty of time for opposition before the money was spent on it. The thing was discussed, criticized, modified, and negotiated for years before it was built. So what's YOUR preference? Cancelation at any cost?
Valid point.
Have you ever had doubts, or have you ever been critical about the LHC? Have you ever questioned the science behind the LHC in order to arrive at the opinions you are expressing here? Are you into faith based science?
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
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Jarad
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Are you into faith based science?
No, but neither do I find it necessary to personally investigate and give my opinion of every scientific project in the world. I do have faith that the large number of reputable scientists who are experts in their field and compete with this project for funds and the politicians who have other worthwhile efforts to fund with limited resources took those issues into account rather than just blindly plunge forward on "faith" into this project.
Like I said, it's not that we won't consider it, it's that it was already considered - extensively. At this point the decision has been made and the money has been largely spent. So I'd rather look on the positive side and hope that it does, in fact, result in some new discoveries that are worth the cost.
Jarad
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4311
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Are you into faith based science?
Would you define that?
(Not trying to bicker - I'm just not familiar with the term).
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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Are you into faith based science?
Would you define that?
(Not trying to bicker - I'm just not familiar with the term).
That's a bit of humor based on the idea of facing the unknown in science and moving ahead without knowing where you are going. Take a look a this vid where scientists associated with LHC discuss the possibility of not finding the Higgs particle.
It should be noted that Brian Cox appears to be emerging as the face of the LHC click the vid in the upper right hand corner. He reminds me of Buckaroo Banzai.
From vids and articles on the web, I have found two possibilties for the Higgs particle;
1) It is hard to find.
2) It does not exist. It only existed in the first fraction of a second of the birth of the universe. That fraction of a second would give an atomic clock problems.
The LHC intends to create the conditions that existed at the cosmic dawn of time thus creating a Higgs particle. If the Higgs particle is found the search is not over. It's just another part of the puzzle.
If the LHC fails to find the Higgs particle they will build a bigger collider. Don't tell me they won't.
I have seen estimates for the LHC that ran from $3.5 to $8 billion. But I must admit that researching the LHC for the last few days has created an excitement for the subject and I look forward to its results. I would say it's worth it. Goverments are frivolous with a lot more than that.
Skepticism has it rewards.
Dave, I have backed away from the kill switch. 
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
Edited by LesB (08/28/08 07:53 PM)
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10477
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you into faith based science?
Would you define that?
(Not trying to bicker - I'm just not familiar with the term).
That's a bit of humor based on the idea of facing the unknown in science and moving ahead without knowing where you are going. Take a look a this vid where scientists associated with LHC discuss the possibility of not finding the Higgs particle.
Well, if you knew where you were going, they wouldn't call it "exploration", would they?
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I have seen estimates for the LHC that ran from $3.5 to $8 billion. But I must admit that researching the LHC for the last few days has created an excitement for the subject and I look forward to its results. I would say it's worth it. Goverments are frivolous with a lot more than that.
I don't care if they find the Higgs Boson or not. What interests me are the things they might find that they didn't even know they were looking for.
I guess you could say I DO have faith, in a sense. I'm a strong believer in serendipity.
Even if it occasionally turns out to be serendipity doo-dah.
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Skepticism has it rewards.
I believe that, too! 
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Dave, I have backed away from the kill switch.
Whew! I was starting to get a little shaky there for a while... 
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Jarad
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
If the LHC fails to find the Higgs particle they will build a bigger collider. Don't tell me they won't.
Well, if it was supposed to work on the first try, they wouldn't call it research. It would just be called search. 
Jarad
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