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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5376
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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I frequently use my DSI's for observing and it's easy and a lot of fun. From what I've seen any single frame from one of the video cameras is often better than any single frame from a CCD camera. However, in the specific case of the DSI the operating software allows you to do basic functions like aligning, combining, and basic image procesing in real-time so even stacking as images stack things improve real quick. Other software probably let's you do the same thing, I'm just familiar with Envisage. I typically use 1 second exposures in 'finder' mode, 10 second exposures for 'preview', then kick it up as long as I want (typically 15-30 seconds) for 'observing'. While observing a target I'll go ahead and let the software stack images in real-time, play with the brightness and contrast, and save the source images for more advanced image processing later, or I just toss them out. One neat thing you get fromths type of observing is a photographic record of your obsrvations.
Video observing and CCD observing (and DSLR observing) are different twists on the same activity, as to whether one it 'better' than the other that's up to the individual.
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-John
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Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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GOLGO13
sage
Reged: 11/05/05
Posts: 361
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I think what needs to be considered here is visual observing provides a different view of an object than photography. When your in a dark sky with a large telescope (10 inches and above), you can see a ton of detail on many objects. Much of this detail is different than what you would see in an astrophoto. I find visual observing to be sharper in many ways to photos.
I think both types of observing have their places. For visual observing, there's also the fun of getting together with people and discussing objects, discussing technologies, etc. Also, I absolutely love scanning the milky way with binoculars, seeing shooting stars, satellites, etc.
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www.slooh.com (live online astronomy!)
Orion XT10i Dob
Celestron 4 inch f10 Refractor [2 speed Antares crayford][SVP Intelliscope]
William Optics Zenithstar FD 80mm APO [Vixen PortaMount]
Canon 10x30IS Binos
Celestron 15x70mm Binos
Nikon Action 7x50mm Binos
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Bowmoreman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
It seems that getting hold of one of these Mallincams might be difficult for buyers in Europe and will there be problems with supply from a small manufacturer?
What makes a Mallincam better than a DSI for 'near live' viewing? If you view a Malincam video image at say 2 seconds integration will this be significantly different from a 2 second sub from a DSI imager?
Or to put it another way, would viewing 'immediate' DSI images enhance the viewing experience in any way?
It is no more difficult to get a Mallincam in Europe or Australia than it is here in the Americas; you contact Jack at Jack's Astro, and get "on the wait list"... There folks with them doing broadcasts in Europe and Australia.
As to Rock Mallin's support: just cruise over to the forum and check into it. There's a Yahoo forum on Mallincam as well, and theres a LOT of support that happens there. If/when someone has had a problem with their Mallincam, its usually back in their hands within 2 weeks.
As to delta from DSI, there are many... this is optimized for realtime video feed versus capturing... you CAN capture (with add-on technology). DSI (going by my DSI Pro anyway) is definitely NOT oriented in the same way...
Yes, you can do semi-live with DSI, but its not the same (I don't know how to best describe it)...
Also, the MCHP is - from my experience for color - FAR more sensitive...
Plus, to get color with my DSI Pro, I have to slide the RGB filters around... that is hardly conducive to viewing a realtime color picture.
All of this (and more) is described in detail over on the Video and Electronically Assisted Visual forum.
For the record, I also LOVE regular normal "visual" (as you can probably tell from my EP list!). This type of electronically assisted viewing IS different than visual, but, in my, and most of those of us whom have tried it, opinion - it is far closer to standard visual than it is to astrophotography.
This is why theres a separate forum; we had a long discussion and consideration period before that forum was so kindly created.
IMO, and YMMV, DSI approach is closer to AP than Mallincam (or Stellacam, or I3 eyepieces, etc.). DSI is certainly designed with AP use-cases as the primary use-case...
HTH
clear enough skies
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Dave
Ustream
YLive
XT10i, RTP, CGE, R200CF, TMB80SS
31T5, 22T4, 13Ethos, 8Ethos, TV 3-6 Zoom; Paracorr
MallincamColorHyperPlus,SBIG STV&237A;CanonRebel Xti
WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO #90)
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bdjeep
super member
Reged: 01/29/07
Posts: 187
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
This type of electronically assisted viewing IS different than visual, but, in my, and most of those of us whom have tried it, opinion - it is far closer to standard visual than it is to astrophotography.
I've had the fortune of sharing some views with Dave (Bowmoreman) using his Mallincam. I'd certainly agree with Dave's assessment. It's not quite "pure" visual, but it's definitely not astrophotography.
The images are more or less instant and the setup and tracking requirements are less demanding than traditional AP. However, you'll still be able to see very faint and very distant objects with details that are elusive to most (if not all) visual setups.
If you're really looking to just "see more stuff" and possibly share with others, then this is a great way to go without many of the hassles involved in full blown astrophotography.
On the other hand, there's something special about photons that have traveled for eons hitting your eye directly. Video assisted astronomy is no replacement for the romanticized view of astronomy that one gets when reading about guys like Herschel or Messier. Sometimes the view through the optics is just very pleasing without the monitors and electronics in the way.
Also, the limited resolution of the Mallincam makes some brighter objects like globular clusters look better through the eyepiece (provided you have enough aperture). I think it's for these reasons that many video astronomers maintain nice eyepiece collections.
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5376
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Given the choice, for observing I prefer my monochrome DSI Pro over my color DSI. The Pro is more sensitive, gives a much sharper image, the contrast is better, it's easier, and the image cleans up much faster when stacking. Also, the monochrome image is a better match to what I see visually as the real colors are often so subtle and so beautiful I've never seen a color image of any kind from any camera that comes close to capturing what the real thing looks like.
Again, these are really just different ways of achieving the same thing, which one works best for you will depend on your individual preferences and circumstances.
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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Doug L
super member
Reged: 08/17/08
Posts: 122
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
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Quote:
...there's something special about photons that have traveled for eons hitting your eye directly...
This is why I'm more and more drawn to straight-through binocular observing instead of looking in a reflector or a refractor and cassegrain's star diagonal. Psychologically, it gives me a closer connection to what I'm observing. Yes, I know that the light in the bino is reflected in prisms or mirrors but because I'm looking in the same direction as my unaided eyes, it seems as if I'm directly looking at the object. However, for higher magnifications or more light grasp, I still enjoy the view in scopes, and you'll also find me looking over imagers' shoulders at their computer screens. 
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Bino reality... 1 + 1 > 2
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Brooklyn
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 870
Loc: Central New Jersey
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So bowmoreman,
If you could rate products and equipment on a scale from:
Visual Observing - Semi visual - semi ap - full AP
Where would you rate Mallincam and other video cams compared to dsi pro or DSLR cameras? Its sort of hard to grasp exactly what each camera does, and what it cant do.
Isnt it true that some cameras can do both video live feeds AND long exposure AP, while others can only do one or the other?
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Meade 8.25"(209.55mm) LX-90 EMC (SCT)
Albert Einstein =>
“Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death.”
“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
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Bowmoreman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
So bowmoreman,
If you could rate products and equipment on a scale from:
Visual Observing - Semi visual - semi ap - full AP
Where would you rate Mallincam and other video cams compared to dsi pro or DSLR cameras? Its sort of hard to grasp exactly what each camera does, and what it cant do.
Isnt it true that some cameras can do both video live feeds AND long exposure AP, while others can only do one or the other?
On a scale where one end is total real-time, close as possible to "original photons hitting retina" and the other end is lots of batch/offline processing to result in as detailed - and permanent - an image as possile...
Note: I have firsthand experience with classic CCD, DSLR, Webcam, DSI Pro Mallincam and EPs (from included plossls to Ethos). I do NOT have firsthand experience with Stellacams or with Collins I3.
So, bearing in mind that some in the middle can go either way, while not being optimized in that sense; I'd personally rank things:
1) Naked Eye
2) Binoculars
3) Good EP in good Refractor
4) Good EP in good reflector
5) Good EP in good compound
6) Mallincam (or presumably Stellacam) to high quality CRT monitor. I am guessing that if/when I experience a Collins I3 it would slot here as well.
7) Mallincam (or presumably Stellacam) being used to simultaneously broadcast (on web) while also recording for later stacking/processing...
8) Web Cam of planetary, etc. (viewing and simultaneously recdording) - but this is ONLY for planetary
9) DSI or other CCD camera NOT designed for near-realtime visual but being used that way
10) DSLR with "live view" focusing screens, and taking "quick peeks"
11) DSLR for capture and stack classic AP
12) DSI used as classic capture for later processing
13) Classic high quality CCD capture, processing.
Personally, I have not used my DSI Pro ONCE since I got my Mallincam; I really ought to sell it... it is - for me - too much of a compromise, when one considers that DSLRs now eat it for lunch on the "longer, stacking, classic" type AP use cases (and are easier to focus and do things in near-real time for setup, etc.)... and that the Mallincam (in Color) and presumably the Stellacam also totally trump it in terms of "ready, set, GO" realtime viewing ease and ability to go really deep, etc...
Each of those rankings (not at each far end) obviously have "overlap bars" over many of the others...
This is especially true of the EP/Scope combos (obviously different combos there are better/worse at different types of targets, varying conditions, etc.)...
HTH
Clear enough skies
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Dave
Ustream
YLive
XT10i, RTP, CGE, R200CF, TMB80SS
31T5, 22T4, 13Ethos, 8Ethos, TV 3-6 Zoom; Paracorr
MallincamColorHyperPlus,SBIG STV&237A;CanonRebel Xti
WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO #90)
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Brooklyn
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 870
Loc: Central New Jersey
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amazing post bowmoreman, I will recommend that this post be immortalized in the annals of CN stickies.
By the way, I know that the mallincam is the equivalent of a 8mm eyepiece and would be 250x magnification on my scope.
What if the seeing that day doesn't support 250x....would the image look considerably worse? And i know that the mallincam has 1 zoom feature....can it zoom past 250x or under 250x? I read the website but i couldnt find that info.
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Meade 8.25"(209.55mm) LX-90 EMC (SCT)
Albert Einstein =>
“Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death.”
“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
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Bowmoreman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
amazing post bowmoreman, I will recommend that this post be immortalized in the annals of CN stickies.
By the way, I know that the mallincam is the equivalent of a 8mm eyepiece and would be 250x magnification on my scope.
What if the seeing that day doesn't support 250x....would the image look considerably worse? And i know that the mallincam has 1 zoom feature....can it zoom past 250x or under 250x? I read the website but i couldnt find that info.
Instead of the zoom; I'd recommend using a combination of the MFR3 focal reducer, and "spacers" (I have a 5mm and a 10mm spacer)... by varying the spacing of the MFR3 from the chip, I can turn my f4 into anything all the way down to an f1.92 (too much for my LP skies usually)... this means that you're changing the magnification and FOV accordingly...
the "8mm 50 degree plossl" is the stock MCHP; spacers make it lower powered and wider...
It's pretty flexible... though, unless you use it in a fast (ish) scope of short (ish) f/l you're never going to be too low power...
It worked well in my f9 900mm APO, it works much better in my TMB80ss (f6.3) and is uber-awesome in my 200mm f4 SN8.. (800mm fl)
The more I do this astronomy thing, the more I realize that no matter your viewing modalities, you really do need more than one scope! 
clear enough skies
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Dave
Ustream
YLive
XT10i, RTP, CGE, R200CF, TMB80SS
31T5, 22T4, 13Ethos, 8Ethos, TV 3-6 Zoom; Paracorr
MallincamColorHyperPlus,SBIG STV&237A;CanonRebel Xti
WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO #90)
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