tcat
member
Reged: 06/02/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Va. USA
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I have seen it suggested here on CN that if you do a 3 star alignment the leveling of the mount is not that important. Is the software really that smart or does it presume a level mount when it takes you to objects? I personally always level the mount, put in the exact lat/long, and the exact time and have never had an alignment failure. But if I thought I could skip a step and still get good goto results, I would probably do it when viewing time is limited. What does the voice of experience say?
Thanks and clear skies, Tom
-------------------- NexStar 6 SE
Orion 80mm ShortTube
Garrett Gemini 15X70 LW
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alser2
member
Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 81
Loc: cork, ireland
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hi tcat, i do enter the exact coordinates and time myself, but i level the tripod with my own eyes, i dont use a bubble level thing. i have never failed to auto 2 star align, but some nights seem better than others with locating objects using the goto. my garden and driveway are slightly sloped so i do the best i can with my own eyes. thats just my experience so far anyway.
-------------------- Celestron Nexstar 6SE
Celestron Firstscope 114 EQ + Solar filter
Celestron 12x60 Skymaster Binos
4mm, 32mm, 40mm Plossl, 2x barlow lens
10x, 20x, 25x eyepiece
moon filter and various colour filters
seben LP filter
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Av8torjim
member
   
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 39
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I've only used my N8 about 5 or 6 times now, but I have had much better Go-To success since I started leveling the tripod before I put the scope on it. I've got the optional heavy-duty tripod and it is very easy to level. I use a 12" bubble level. I also make certain that the OTA is level and very close to pointing north using a compass. I realize that later models don't have to use "level and north" to start. I think level and north is more important for finding the alignment stars. However, in my light-polluted,inside the city environment, the alignment stars stand out, so it's not that critical.
-------------------- Celestron N8i Hybrid/Ray's Bracket/9x50 RACI
TV Nagler 13T6, 9T6 & 7T1
TV Panoptic 24 & 19
TV Plossl 32, 11 & 8
Meade 5000 Plossl 14
Lumicon Deep Sky (SCT), Orion Ultrablock (SCT), Lumicon OIII
Celestron f6.3 Reducer
TV Everbrite Diagonal
Celestron Ultima 2x Barlow
1970s Selsi Model 247 80mm f11.4 refractor on GEM
Minolta Standard EZ 10x50 Wide Angle Binoculars
Orion 15x70 GiantView Binoculars
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joejoe
member
Reged: 08/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Switzerland
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Normally I don't check the level. But I'm beginning to notice that some nights the goto is spot on and other nights it's hit and miss - no matter how many times I update the alignment stars.
GPS and date and time are perfect, so I guess the only other significant variable must be the level. If the mount is nice and level to start with, the 2 star auto align should put the second star in the center of the eyepiece. Right? Maybe I will re-level again if the 2 star auto align does not find the second star exactly.
-------------------- Celestron Nexstar 8SE
Maxvision MN152 F4.8 Mak-Newt
Megrez 72 APO
EQ6 Mount
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bcuddihee
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 935
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
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I find leveling helps quite a bit. I found a nice bubble level on the internet that is larger than the one supplied with the scope. Larger in this case means more accurate because the footprint is bigger. I foam taped it directly to the logo plate..it was the same size and had a nice orange color to match Celestron's colors...well almost. Works very well.
-------------------- B Cuddihee
On the quest to find the best for the least!
--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE(a remarkable 8" grab and go)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of 26m Celestron Silvertop Plossls
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's
Pair of Smart Astronomy 16 EF's
Agena 38 SWA
Agena 26 SWA
Garrett 2" 2x ED Barlow
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bcuddihee
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 935
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
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here a couple of pics..
-------------------- B Cuddihee
On the quest to find the best for the least!
--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE(a remarkable 8" grab and go)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of 26m Celestron Silvertop Plossls
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's
Pair of Smart Astronomy 16 EF's
Agena 38 SWA
Agena 26 SWA
Garrett 2" 2x ED Barlow
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bcuddihee
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 935
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
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oops we'll try again
-------------------- B Cuddihee
On the quest to find the best for the least!
--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE(a remarkable 8" grab and go)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of 26m Celestron Silvertop Plossls
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's
Pair of Smart Astronomy 16 EF's
Agena 38 SWA
Agena 26 SWA
Garrett 2" 2x ED Barlow
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bcuddihee
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 935
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
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one more..
-------------------- B Cuddihee
On the quest to find the best for the least!
--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE(a remarkable 8" grab and go)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of 26m Celestron Silvertop Plossls
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's
Pair of Smart Astronomy 16 EF's
Agena 38 SWA
Agena 26 SWA
Garrett 2" 2x ED Barlow
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jcjr
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/06/08
Posts: 563
Loc: TN, USA
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My SLT virtually always succeeds alignment if it is real close to level. And it seems to almost always fail alignment if it is not real close to level.
Haven't had the CPC1100 very long, but the one time it has failed alignment, was with the tripod not level.
Humans have such good pattern recognition, often they will notice patterns where none really exist. So my findings may be random chance that has fooled me. But a couple of times early on, I'd do 2 or 3 failed alignments, and then level the tripod, and then it would align no problem the first time after leveling.
-------------------- CPC 1100, C102SLT, SV F80, Meade 70 & 60 AZT
Q70 38mm, Pan24, Meade 5K 18mm UW, Axiom LX 15mm, Nagler 13T6, Axiom LX 10mm, Expanse 20mm, 9mm, 6mm, BO/TMB 5mm, 2.5mm
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Bob Griffiths
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4195
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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My take after playing around is that my old eyeballs are plenty good enough to level my scope....
Let me explain playing around....
I have a CN-16 GPS unit on my scope and I always used a GPS alignment with its original HC because it required the scope to be both Level and pointed North... after a successful alignment you needed to Calibrate both North and Level via the HC...
This is important because Magnetic North is a hair over 10.1 degrees to the EAST of Celestrial North from my home...Level is however...well... level..!!!!.
So what I did was using the old HC start the process and let the GPS unit actually level and point the OTA to NORTH...I then powered off the scope and switched HC to the new Skyalign HC...powered on the scope ..and did an alignment and my Goto's were darn good...
I then powered off the scope picked up the tripod and moved it a few feet....thus destroying its being level...I could see it was close to level but definitely "off". it was far enough off being level that I would normally adjust it some more... get it closer to being close to level level....
But in this case I did nothing...I let is sit as is ..noticeably not quite level
Powered up the scope did another alignment using the same stars I had used a few minutes earlier and discovered that my GoTo's were still pretty darn good... ..from that point on when using the Skyalign HC I figured my eyeballs were plenty accurate enough to level the scope...
I still use the GPS ...it still enters the correct time so why not get some use out of it...Plus for the last 2 years the scope has been on a pier inside my Obs and has not moved 0.001 of an inch. I can not remember how long ago It has been since I last aligned it...
Bob G.
-------------------- CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
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joejoe
member
Reged: 08/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Switzerland
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If it's clear tonight I will do a scientific test! So far it is looking good.
-------------------- Celestron Nexstar 8SE
Maxvision MN152 F4.8 Mak-Newt
Megrez 72 APO
EQ6 Mount
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jcjr
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/06/08
Posts: 563
Loc: TN, USA
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Interesting. Wonder if it is possible that the mechanism or software is different-enough between different celestron mounts, that some models or even individual units could be pickier about level than other models or units?
-------------------- CPC 1100, C102SLT, SV F80, Meade 70 & 60 AZT
Q70 38mm, Pan24, Meade 5K 18mm UW, Axiom LX 15mm, Nagler 13T6, Axiom LX 10mm, Expanse 20mm, 9mm, 6mm, BO/TMB 5mm, 2.5mm
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joejoe
member
Reged: 08/04/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Switzerland
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Well my test was inconclusive. Perhaps I need a better level or it's operator error!
-------------------- Celestron Nexstar 8SE
Maxvision MN152 F4.8 Mak-Newt
Megrez 72 APO
EQ6 Mount
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D-Day
newbie
Reged: 12/06/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Saskatchewn, Canada
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I was having hit-and-miss success with my goto's after purchasing my 8SE last year. I asked the staff at Starizona for tips to improve my alignment accuracy and was asked if I was sure my scope was level, and how long it took me to do an alignment.
To try their suggestions, I opened the lid to the battery compartment and used a carpenters level to check the level. I rotated the base to check the level in each direction until it read level whichever direction I pointed the scope.
With respect to the time to complete the alignment, they brought up a good point: the earth rotates 15 degrees each hour or 0.25 degrees per minute. If you take 10 minutes to complete an alignment then the earth has rotated 2.5 degrees since you started, and the fix on your first star is now out. I suspect this is the reason why most users have good success with an auto two-star alignment as it takes them less time.
Since trying these tips, my alignments have been much more consistent and accurate. It really is a joy when you ask your scope to slew to an object and there it is spot on in the middle of the field of view.
-------------------- Celestron NexStar 8SE
SkyScout
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Tel
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/31/06
Posts: 2631
Loc: Wallingford England
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Hi Dennis,
Firstly let me welcome you wholeheartedly to CN and to this Nexstar forum !
My impressions of the need for accurate (bubble) levelling follow somewhat different lines, but for what they are worth here goes !
In the first instance I have been told that accurate levelling when using Skyalign is all important. This may well be the case but since to my shame, all my attempts at this specific mode of alignment have always resulted in total failure, I never use it !
However, from what I've read and experienced, the alternative methods such as Auto Two Star (which I do constantly use), are not sensitive to spot on levelling and that mere "eyeballing" is sufficient.
As to Starizona's ideas on the subject of levelling and alignment I'm afraid do not agree.
The soundness of the maths is unquestionable but the notion that for the sake of accuracy the fastest alignment possible must be made, is a myth. Indeed there's a quote on this subject by Mike Swanson: argueably the Nexstar Guru", in his book, "The Nexstar User's Guide".
"Quote" --- "You must work as fast as possible between centering the first and second alignment stars".
"Sounds good, just isn't true. In a test of this statement, I started an alignment, centering the first star, and then waited one hour before centering the second star. This caused no problems; GoTo and tracking behaved normally. Obviously the hand control keeps track of the amount of time between centering one star and the next and incorporates this factor into its calculations".
---"Unquote"
This is also my experience although I've never waited for an hour before completing an alignment !
My understanding is that in aligning two stars, such provides the on board computer with two celestial reference points from which it then works out the position of every other object within its vast data base.
However the speed at which these alignment points (stars) are entered is irrelevant because tracking does not begin until after the second star has been aligned, entered and "Align Success" proclaimed by the hand controller.
Having therefore "logged" the first star; if there is a time delay between this action and aligning the second star, the first star has of course "moved on". But so has the second star and in the exact same relationship to the first. Thus the "sky picture" can only be built after the second star has been aligned.
Going back though to accurate levelling, I'm certainly in favour of anything which may help the 'scope user achieve the best from his or her 'scope but there is perhaps a fine line to be drawn between effort and gain.
My approach to this is that my GoTos always fall within the field of view of a 20mm standard Ploessl eyepiece (ca.30 arcmins) and most times are pretty near to its centre. If need be, I refine this and carry on. I therefore have no personal preoccupation with seeking the "nth" degree of accuracy with regard to this particular aspect.
As usual, just my opinion on my way of doing things which may certainly not be those of other folks !
Best Regards, Tel
-------------------- Truth is the cubed root of Verbosity.
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Bob Griffiths
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4195
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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I agree with Tel (as usual)....the time it takes to do a complete alignment is not at all important.... I have NEVER taken an hour to finish an alignment after I started BUT I have taken as much as 20 minutes more then a few times as my wife called me into the house to do something (usually to "collect" my coffee cups )
The fact is when you enter the 1st star and press align the scope knows where that star is and at what time it is there....same with the 2nd star... The scope has the ability to factor in those locations and times...
As for being level... I stand by my previous post that you sure do not need to be anal about it... My eyeballs are more then accurate enough....If you feel like you really want the thing dead on level ...thats fine ... it sure can not hurt anything...I just find that it is just not necessary...
BUT Unlike Tel...I never had any problem using skyalign... and that is the method I taught my Grand daughter to use when I purchased an 8SE for her... I All I stressed to her was that she should use one star in the East and one star in the West ...then find a 3rd star in the middle that forms a big triangle...
Bob G.
-------------------- CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
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Tel
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/31/06
Posts: 2631
Loc: Wallingford England
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Hi Bob,
Taking up your points on Skyalign and my shameful failures to make it work, (although as I say, Auto Two Star serves me fine - so I'll stick to it !), do you think that the reason why this "three object" alignment lets me down every time, is because I have no southwest to northwest horizon from my back yard (the house blocking the view).
As such with only practically north to south through east, perhaps my "triangle" is not wide/ large enough ?
Any opinions Bob ?
Best regards, Tel
-------------------- Truth is the cubed root of Verbosity.
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Bob Griffiths
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4195
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Tel: Well missing that much of the sky is not a great way to start
But you still have 250 degrees of sky to play with...How about using the same 2 stars that you normally do when using the 2 star alignment then throwing in a 3rd somewhere in between.. making the largest triangle you can with what sky you have...
BTW....no problem using your methods as they work for you but I honestly have not had a problem with using Skyalign ..but I normally will just do a 2 star alignment ...never really tried the Auto 2 Star alignment..
From my backyard I only have one spot that I can set up the scope that I can actually see Polaris (and I have close to a 2 acre lot) from and that spot is not optimal ..(major reason I elevated my observatory off the ground) ..when I use my AR-5 on the Gem mount I lug it across the road and set up in the cornfield ...But the corn does not get harvested until the later part of Sept..
My daughter lives on the top of a hill..so my grand daughter has an almost unlimited view of the sky has has nice wide horizons ... which I'd love to have but I'd hate to have to get up their driveway in winter. so everything is a compromise
Bob G.
-------------------- CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
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Tel
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/31/06
Posts: 2631
Loc: Wallingford England
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Hi Bob,
Exactly ! It certainly IS not a good place to start from and probably the root cause of my inability to "SkyAlign" as I might suspect !
No matter though, good ol' "Auto Two Star" has never let me down yet and I always have the option to realign, either on the original or new stars during the course of an evening's viewing, plus as stand-bys, there's always both "Sync" and "Precise GoTo" features to hand !
Many thanks for you comments and my best regards, Tel
-------------------- Truth is the cubed root of Verbosity.
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