|
Davidgojr
member
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio, TX
|
|
I'd also like to note that I have used Orbitron and Starry Night to predict and view a number of satellites as they transit in front of the moon. Some predicted satellites that I have observed take only a second or two to transit the lunar disk. Others can take as long as 15 seconds to transit. (As evidenced by both the software predictions and observations through my scope)
-------------------- San Antonio, TX
Orion XT6
|
Jim Mosher
sage
   
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
|
|
Quote:
Some predicted satellites that I have observed take only a second or two to transit the lunar disk. Others can take as long as 15 seconds to transit.
Yes. I have no doubt the predictions and observations are correct. My comments referred to satellites seen transiting the Moon nearly overhead. Taking the roughly 0.5 sec overhead solar/lunar transit time of the ISS (at about 330 km altitude) as a kind of standard, to extend an overhead transit time to 15 seconds would require increasing the altitude by 15/0.5 = 30x, which would reduce the apparent size of the transiting object by the same factor; so even if it was an ISS-sized craft, a satellite going that slowly would appear as an arc-second speck, still moving a hundred times or more its own diameter each second (a more careful calculation gives an altitude of 8400 km, or ~25 times that of the ISS, for a 15 sec overhead transit of the Moon vs. the 0.4 sec transits at the ISS altitude).
Extended transit times of substantial appearing satellites are more likely to be observed when the Moon (and satellite) are near the horizon and the satellite's path is directed along the line of sight. In that case the satellite is farther away than "normal" giving it a reduced apparent size, but the foreshortening of the path is even greater, giving it both a longer transit time and a more leisurely motion compared to the satellite's apparent size.
In the Alan Friedman "movie" mentioned by Timo, the Moon (and ISS) were nearly due west and just 27° above the horizon. Measured along the slant path, the ISS would have been about 750 km away, which reduces its apparent size by a factor of about 0.43 (the sine of the altitude), but could potentially reduce its projected angular motion in the sky by the square of that factor (0.18) if the motion was oriented towards the observer. This can extend the transit time for the whole lunar disk to about 2 seconds, which seems to be roughly what Alan is showing assuming he assembled his GIF animation at 10 frames per second. It is not entirely clear, incidentally, whether the animation is showing actual images of the ISS or a 25 arc-sec long streak caused by blurring over an exposure time of ~25 msec (the two would look very similar); but, in either event, the object imaged moves by about 4 times its own length every frame, and about 40 times its own length in what is presumed to be 1 second.
If I have the math right, a 15 second long transit of the Moon by the ISS would require they be no more than about 9° above the horizon (angular speed reduced by factor of sin^2[9°] = 0.024), and the ISS would be reduced to 0.16 its "normal" (overhead) size. Still longer transits are, of course, possible if the Moon is still lower in the sky (and the ISS motion is towards -- or away from -- the observer).
Ed Morana's website (mentioned earlier in the thread in connection with its JAVA code transit calculator), has a number of examples of ISS transits of the Moon where the range to the ISS was around 260 miles (420 km), implying that the Moon (and ISS) were about 53° above the horizon. I believe they are displayed at real time and the ISS zips across the field so fast it is quite difficult to freeze the video on one of the frames containing it.
-- Jim
|
canopus56
sage
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 298
|
|
Calsky has a "Lunar/Solar Disk Crossing of Larger Satellites" applet that will produce a list of lunar and solar disk crossings by "bright satellites".
http://www.calsky.com/cs.cgi/Satellites/16?
The example YouTube videos apppears to have been shot at or near full Moons when the illuminated fraction of the lunar disk is the largest.
Using the Calsky applet, just enter in the date of the evening of the next full Moon (I used 9/15/2008 22 MDT or 9/16/2008 UT) and looked for events within two days on or after the full Moon. Calsky promptly coughed up a lunar crossing and two solar disk crossings on or after the next full Moon on Sept. 15. On 9/16/2008 03:48 MDT, satellite Lacrosse 3 could be imaged by me driving about 20 kilometers to get on the centerline of the ground track. Calsky lists the transit time 1.4 secs for this low flying satellite at 862 km above the Earth. Other possible opportunities for higher flying objects at 6000 km show longer transit times - up to 23 seconds. Looking at few representative days, there are many more solar disk transits by "bright satellites" listed than lunar transits.
With the huge number of satellites in orbit, I'm sure everyone regardless of their observing point will find that the Calsky applet returns at least one satellite crossing imaging opportunity within 2 or 3 days of the next full Moon.
- Kurt
|
Jim Mosher
sage
   
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
|
|
Quote:
With the huge number of satellites in orbit, I'm sure everyone regardless of their observing point will find that the Calsky applet returns at least one satellite crossing imaging opportunity within 2 or 3 days of the next full Moon.
Kurt,
It's true there's a lot of stuff in orbit, but depending on how you define an "imaging opportunity" -- and whether you're willing to travel to witness it -- this may paint a somewhat optimistic picture. You may wish to check the apparent angular sizes of the transiting objects listed in the CalSky predictions, many of which are less than an arc-second in diameter. There is also the problem that some of the satellite elements, including perhaps those for Lacrosse 3, may be extremely out of date making it uncertain if the listed satellite will actually transit the Moon as seen from a given location.
To me, recording something the size of the shadow in one of the larger Plato craterlets (~1 arc-sec diameter) moving across the Moon in 1-2 sec would be quite challenging -- I should think you'd have to know exactly when and where to look.
For statistical purposes, the Sun is a good Moon-sized test target, and as I understand it, the CalSky page you reference has an "Astronomer" mode in which it prints out every satellite passing with 1.5° of the center of the Sun that has a potential to be as much as 1 arc-sec across in its largest dimension when passing directly overhead (of course many wind up much smaller because they are unfavorably oriented or seen over a much longer slant range). At this time of year, the Sun is up for about 12 hours a day, and from my location near latitude 34°N, CalSky says that for the next two weeks there will be, on average about 1 pass per day of something that could be larger than 2 arc-sec within 1.5° of the Sun, and a little under 10 passes of something possibly over 1 arc-sec.
To actually transit the Sun (or Moon), the satellite has to come within 0.25° of that object's center. Hence only 1/36th of the satellites that pass within 1.5° will even partially transit without moving the telescope to a more favorable location. This reduces the probabilities of witnessing a transit from a fixed location in a 12 hour observing session to about 0.3 for a 1 arc-sec object and 0.03 for a 2 arc-sec object. The predicted transit times for objects in this size range, incidentally, should one be lucky enough to be positioned where they cross the full diameter, range up to about 2 sec for the 2 arc-sec silhouettes and 4 sec for the 1 arc-sec ones. Most are briefer.
Switching to the CalSky "Hobby" mode, in 10 weeks of 12-hour samples I found 3 passes within 1.5° of the Sun in which the satellite was predicted to appear 5 arc-sec or more in diameter (the size of a 9 km crater). That gives a probability of 0.001 for observing a transit of this sort in a single 12-hour session. These larger-appearing transits (two of the three were the International Space Station) lasted at most 1.6 seconds.
I have very little practical feel for the difficulty of observing such things, but based on my own limited experiences trying to view Space Shuttle (up to ~40 arc-sec at 200 km range) and ISS (now up to ~50 arc-sec at 330 km range) passes many years ago, I should think trying to catch a 2 arc-sec object moving that rapidly as a dark silhouette on a bright background would be quite difficult, and catching a 1 arc-sec one extremely difficult. I would guess the satellite has to get up to 5-10 arc-sec diameter before you have a real "imaging opportunity". So I would think the chance of casually noticing a satellite pass over the Moon is very small. But our eyes are designed to see moving objects more readily than stationary ones, so I might be wrong about that.
The reason I didn't ask directly for Moon transits is that CalSky appears to list lunar transits on this page only when the Sun is near or below the horizon, so that the observing interval represented each day is shorter and less uniform; and, and least on the page referenced, it won't make predictions of this sort much beyond the current month, so I couldn't explore any but the current Full Moon day (you can make more comprehensive and extensive predictions for individual objects -- especially the ISS -- on other pages). However, the likelihood of a transit over some part of the lunar disk (illuminated or not) during any 12 hours while it is above the horizon should be very similar to the likelihood of a solar transit in the same time span.
From the numbers found above, it looks to me like, on average, from a fixed observing location one would have to watch the entire disk of the Full Moon continuously and intently for more than thirty 12-hour sessions before you could expect to witness the transit of a single satellite 2 arc-sec or larger in apparent size; and something like 1000 full nights to see one greater than 5 arc-sec. This makes me wonder if the 12 or so possible "orbital" objects that David saw drifting across the face of the last Full Moon in a single hour could really have all been space junk. If they were, David's eyes must have been able to see very tiny moving dots. Otherwise its several hundred times the expected rate.
Please note that the above numbers all refer to the "lazy" observer who is waiting for the satellite transit to come to their fixed observing location. Just as you have many opportunities to see a solar eclipse if you are willing to travel far enough, on any Full Moon night the ISS is casting its shadow somewhere on the dark side of the Earth about 50% of the time. If you are willing to go to that place at that time (and the weather is good), you can take a photo of it in transit. Most of the events that CalSky lists as passing within 1.5° of the Sun and Moon can be witnessed as transits by travelling less than 100 km -- sometimes much less. If all of these are included as "observing opportunities" then the probabilities of being able to see one are increased by 36x: each 12-hour Full Moon night there is likely to be an opportunity to witness a 2 arc-sec satellite somewhere within this kind of driving distance (although the predictions may not be accurate enough to say exactly where), and in ~30 12-hour Full Moon nights there is probably an opportunity to witness a 5 arc-sec (or larger) transit (most likely the ISS).
--
Regarding "bright satellites," if CalSky has a button to restrict transit listings to those (I didn't see one), I'd avoid it, unless that's your special interest. "Bright" means the satellite is (at least partially) in sunlight, either because it's daytime or because the satellite is high enough up to catch some rays of sunlight even though the Sun is below the horizon from the observer's position on the ground. That's great for naked eye satellite observing because it means you can see a satellite too small to resolve as an artificial star in the darkened twilight sky (satellites that aren't "bright" can't be seen at night at all except in transit). However, for transit observations against the illuminated part of the lunar disk being "bright" may be a bummer: as with transits of the Galilean moons of Jupiter, it means the transiting object is going to blend in with the background. If it isn't very bright (like the ISS in Alan Friedman's daytime animation) the brightness may make it harder to see against the bright part of the Moon.
Just as they can easily be seen moving across any other dark part of the sky, bright satellites can be seen transiting in front of the dark part of the Moon. This web directory contains videos of two examples by Kevin Fetter. If I understand the notations correctly, CalSky identifies #15099 to be "Meteor 2-11" and "Cosmos 1624 Rocket", both about 5 m in maximum dimension and roughly 5th magnitude when seen in twilight at a range of 1000 km. In the videos they are readily visible as (unresolved) artificial stars making rather leisurely ~2 sec transits. But if seen as dark objects in silhouette against a bright Moon, they would be considerably less than 1 arc-sec in diameter.
-- Jim
Edit: try to make the distinction between the probabilities of seeing transits at fixed versus moving observing locations more clear. Link to videos of bright satellites crossing dark Moon.
|
kfred
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2005
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
|
|
Jerry3672 - Cool looking image!
Fred
-------------------- River Cam - Cambridge England
|
Ishtim
super member
Reged: 11/10/07
Posts: 164
Loc: N. Alabama, USA
|
|
FWIW, Here is a link to a movie I caught of the ISS passing Jupiter on the morning of Wednesday May 21 @ 5:21 CDT. Philips ToUcam 840k at 30 fps & 1/100s (prime focus) in an Orion 80mmED scope on an alt/az tripod (north is up), FOV is 26X23 arcmins, and it is "real" time.
Movie LINK
-------------------- Lewis Smith Lake Observatory
|
canopus56
sage
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 298
|
|
Nice shot, Ishtim. You even got some ISS solar panel detail. - Kurt
|
Davidgojr
member
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio, TX
|
|
I just found some links of interest related to satellites and space debris. Some new plug-ins for Google earth allow one to see orbiting satellites and space debris. I plan to try some of these to see what is viewable and what is not as they transit between my observing location and the moon.
Space Debris Plug-In Information
Exploring Earth's Satellites with Google Earth
-------------------- San Antonio, TX
Orion XT6
|
desertrefugee
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Arizona
|
|
Really interesting thread, folks. One of the best sites for predicting satellite crossings already identified above (calsky.com) is used by a member of our local club for prediction - and setting up for imaging these events.
One thing has become apparent through discussing his efforts:
It is apparently difficult to predict precise centering points. The reason is that small changes in latitude exact a significant parallax error for objects in low-earth orbit. This can cause a pass not nearly as centered as an imager would prefer. And, surprisingly, as little as 5 to 10 miles can be enough to shift the event - to a non-event (it misses the crossing).
Very interesting stuff.
-------------------- "Look now upon the River of Heaven, Sky-Road of the Immortals, White with the star-frost of a billion years".
+++
-Darrell
Reflectors (114, 150, 254mm), Refractors (60, 76.2, 80, 120), MCT (125), way too many Binoculars
Cave Creek/Carefree, AZ
|
RussL
Music Maker
   
Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1609
Loc: Cayce, SC
|
|
Oh, wow, this thread has just given me the initiative I need to get back into some lunar observing. I've been trying to regain my interest, so this will give me something extra to look for. Thanks.
-------------------- --Russell
"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)
Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces
|
RobertED
super member
Reged: 07/11/03
Posts: 173
Loc: Johnston,RI
|
|
CalSky.com is a great website that sends e-mail reports on when ISS, Iridium flares, and other fascinating objects transiting the Moon/Sun will occur. All you need to do is sign up!! Awesome website!!!
|
bobmarleyou812
member
Reged: 01/18/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Poway, CA
|
|
I'm glad I saw this thread because I saw one tonight (11/09/08). Before I knew what it was it was over. I looked for about an hour after ward to see if it would come back and I didn't see it, but at least now I know what it was.
-------------------- 150 mm Orion Mak Cass
Sky View Pro EQ
Meade 5000 26 mm
Meade qx 20 mm
Meade qx 15 mm
W/O spl 12.5 mm
S/V enhanced diagonal
9x63 Celestron Ultima Binos
|
|
1 registered and 1 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: desertstars
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 1353
|
|
|
|
|
|
|