rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Well, I spent time today refitting my machine with its new 30" aluminum table that I can use adjustible cleats on.
I wasted no time putting the 17" on her and began gouging out the sagitta. Like the 18" this will be an f/6 mirror.
I hope to use the same grinding laps and polishing laps.
Here is an image of the first few moments of grinding.
Note the new(old) table.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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And another view from the side.
I love this table cuz I can easily adjust the teflon cleats and I gave it more surface area on the edge(larger cleats).
Nice thing..is this table drains easily through drain holes belieth the mirror and through the cleat slots.
I am using 1/2" *T* nuts with bolts.
I took the time to make changes on the drip system, and I adjusted some belts on the machine while I had it completely torn apart.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Oh...and here is one of the scope shop with the door open letting in all that wonderful summer sun and heat.
Grinding away........
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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Sky Captain
Scope Builder
   
Reged: 11/07/04
Posts: 5745
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Lets hope "second times a charm" Rob. Glad to see you back in the saddle on the mirror grinding chores.
BTW, why the 17" size?
-------------------- Equipment Overload!
Kerry.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Lets hope "second times a charm" Rob. Glad to see you back in the saddle on the mirror grinding chores.
BTW, why the 17" size?
It's been lonesome in the saddle since my.............. horse died. 
Yeah well...I couldn't stay beat-up for long...and since my cousin has been busy on other things...I figured it was time to get at mirror making again.
I chose 17"....cuz that's what I had laying around. I didn't want to have to *cut* one. Soooooo herrrrre weeeee Goooooooo.
I did get to working on the 13" while I was out in the shop as well.
I spent some time organizing some new tools in the machine shop as well....
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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Shmals
sage
   
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 325
Loc: PDX
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Setup looks great Rob I am envious of your shop! Best of luck with this mirror, go easy on it 
-------------------- Tom
"I don't have to out run the bear, I just have to out run you."
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Mark Harry
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 2492
Loc: Northeast
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Those cleats make me wince. Mark
-------------------- Scopes in the works-
Too many for putting down here! Favorites- 8" F/6, 8" F/4.72, 4.5" F/5.4, 14" F/4.455, all completed.
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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 818
Loc: Houston,Texas
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Ha Rob, are those cleats touching the mirrors edge or is there a small space between them and the mirror?
Your comment about more contact area give both Mark and I the willies 
Regards,
Preston
-------------------- A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Setup looks great Rob I am envious of your shop! Best of luck with this mirror, go easy on it 
Thanks.....I learned some vital lessons the last time round. One..DON'T ever get too comfortable. when you do...you make mistakes, and you get crushed glass.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Those cleats make me wince. Mark
Why? The old ones were only half the thickness and when the mirror rested on the insulating pad it didn't allow very much mirror contact. I doubled the thickness just to give more control when polishing.......
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Ha Rob, are those cleats touching the mirrors edge or is there a small space between them and the mirror?
Your comment about more contact area give both Mark and I the willies 
Regards,
Preston
Gentlemen.....the cleats are just touching the mirror...there is no pinching being done. This would, as you know, causes stresses while the mirror is being ground/polished. *More contact*, was implying that I needed more edge contact due to the extra addded thickness of the mirror pad benieth the mirror, not that I wanted to apply more *Pressure* to the mirror. It need be held just secure enough to prevent its movement while grinding and polishing. Is this not correct?
Rob(I already have a nice curve after about 4 hours of grinding)
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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Stefan Rostyne
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 940
Loc: Assenede, Belgium
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Good luck, Rob!
-------------------- Stefan Van de Rostijne
4.5" F4.5 newt 5°widefield/finderscope
8" f/5.6 travel dob
old 12.5" F5 dob (used to look better...)
30 cm f/30 Classic Cassegrain (polishing primary)
23" f/4 dob project
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Good luck, Rob!
Thanks Stefan. I'm taking far more care this time around.
I see your project is moving forward too. One thing you might be mindful of(and you probably already are)is that you need to make sure the mirror isn't slopping around during grinding and polishing. Small movement is impossible to control and even beneficial to a degree. But if you detect movement becoming regular in one particular stroke, then that could be a great cause of the astig that seams to be an issue with your mirror.
Removing reflections that come from behind the mirror may also contribute to perceptions. And a stable will supported test stand is a must for sure.
I'm getting at grinding again and will probably monitor the machine for most of the day...routinly filling the water, and emptying the run off.
I'm also going to keep the machines table clutter free this time round. I have a nice large work bench in the middle of the shop now so that will be the catch all place for grit and mirror making stuff.
OH...I wanted to ask..how exactly did you take the shadowgram image? What was your technique
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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Mark Harry
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 2492
Loc: Northeast
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OK, you have cleats on your table. Even though they might not be tight, or they have a small space, how are you using them? What do they do when they restrain the mirror from sliding off the spindle? If you can answer that question, you may see why they aren't a good thing to have. Mark
-------------------- Scopes in the works-
Too many for putting down here! Favorites- 8" F/6, 8" F/4.72, 4.5" F/5.4, 14" F/4.455, all completed.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
OK, you have cleats on your table. Even though they might not be tight, or they have a small space, how are you using them? What do they do when they restrain the mirror from sliding off the spindle? If you can answer that question, you may see why they aren't a good thing to have. Mark
OK OK I think I'm missing something here. What I call a cleat is a piece of teflon that is used to slightly press up against the mirror on three sides to center the mirror on the table and to keep it from slipping around while grinding and polishing. These pieces of teflon are secured by way of *t* nuts and bolts that pass through a slot(LIke on a lathe).
Was my original description in error, and is the term *cleat* inappropriate for the application?
Cuz if it is...then I surely would like to know how you and everyone else secures their mirrors to their tables. Short of velcro and super glue...... 
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 1370
Loc: salem, OR
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The cleats (call them stops) should never actually touch the mirror, as thermal effects will cause the glass to expand and cinch it up tight, and that will cause astigmatism. Or if the glass is not perfectly round, it can rotate but wedge up against a edge. You should allow about a mm beyond thermal and irregularity of edge and test it by rotating the mirror on the pad to be sure it never binds. The only things the stops should do is prevent the mirror from wandering off the table, it doesn't secure the glass to the table - you can use a latex pad (the shelf liner/carpet pads discussed before) which will hold clean glass very well. Small movements are not harmful, IME. Mostly the stops are useful to put the mirror back in the center of the table when resuming work...
All of the above is several times more important for thin mirrors!
Best, Mark
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
The cleats (call them stops) should never actually touch the mirror, as thermal effects will cause the glass to expand and cinch it up tight, and that will cause astigmatism. Or if the glass is not perfectly round, it can rotate but wedge up against a edge. You should allow about a mm beyond thermal and irregularity of edge and test it by rotating the mirror on the pad to be sure it never binds. The only things the stops should do is prevent the mirror from wandering off the table, it doesn't secure the glass to the table - you can use a latex pad (the shelf liner/carpet pads discussed before) which will hold clean glass very well. Small movements are not harmful, IME. Mostly the stops are useful to put the mirror back in the center of the table when resuming work...
All of the above is several times more important for thin mirrors!
Best, Mark
STOPS! One man's cleat is another man's stop... 
I adhere to all your suggestion.....it is THE WAY.... 
I thought I was doing somthing wrong. Now I see I just used a different name for a *stop* which is what a *cleat* does anyway. 
Rob(On track)
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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Glig
sage
Reged: 10/02/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Gee, my famous 13.7 inch mirror had cleats fairly tight on the edge. They were bolted down. You know about that mirror, don't you, Mark C? I switched to something more flexible when fine grinding, though.
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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 1370
Loc: salem, OR
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Richard,
Well, during rough grinding the grit/mud/slurry tends to fill up any gaps and so stops turn into cleats. My cleats are bolted down, for sure! If things get jammed and the turntable stops I have a failsafe circuit that kills the power. 
Rob,
Sounds good! Sometimes a stop is a cleat, but a cleat is always a stop, no?
Best, Mark
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Mark Harry
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 2492
Loc: Northeast
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I see noone really has the faintest idea what I'm referring to; nor has done any flat work, or polished out multi-element blocks.
Anything even remotely resembling a "cleat" or "stop" must -NOT- be used! Said another way, you need to find another way of holding the glass; while polishing, figuring, and testing.
You all have to realise that in finishing the optic, you are talking about measuring tolerances that can be a fraction of a millionth of an inch. All of your efforts, theories, and nice work building the pretty plywood stands, and interferometers will just be wasted.
Contact with -ANYTHING- ajacent to the edge of the optic will haunt you all through your efforts. It will ruin the figure, plain and simple. It will interfere with testing accuracy. Touching anything cannot be allowed, period!
There are several ways of 'skinning the cat'. You can mount the mirror on a pitch button, and allow the thing to cool off and relieve stress overnight. Or you can do what Kevin mentioned in the other thread; by using tape with the mirror resting on a cushion, where the backer was ground to match the back of the mirror. I use a blank that's blancharded flat, and mounted on backers machined precisely flat as possible.
To eliminate astig on the test stand, there are 2 ways that I can think of to solve those issues. First, you could arrange a vertical test, or nearly so. (A slight offset could be introduced so as to prevent dropping anything on the mirror during the test.)
Second idea, which I use, is to have a typical 1"-8thd spindle thread that accomodates a hub fastened directly to the backer. This can be spun off, and simply rescrewed down to a stub shaft of the same thread on the test stand. The stub is mounted on a hinge, with a bolt stop used for adjustment, and a stick is used to prop the hinged affair up so that you can easily thread the mirror/backer to it safely.Naturally, there is also a cushion between the mirror/backer. No pegs, slings, glass blowing off and hitting the floor, no astigmatism induced by test stands, trefoil, etc.
You may think I don't know what I'm talking about, which is your priviledge. But I've never had to do 50- 20" mirrors to figure out how to do a 24",like one reputable mirror pusher, nor had to get involved in all sorts of elaborate tests for astigmatism, nor deal with returned product due to faulty testing/figuring. There's a specific reason why I recommend what I do. I've already been there, or have seen someone else I've worked with deal with the same problems.
I intend for this to cut through the chaff so to speak, and allow the completion of the 17" satisfactorily. Could be it may be upsetting to those who might feel they have a lot of work to modify their procedures. That is not my intent, but just to shed some light on optical procedure that might be encountered in an ISO certified facility. It can certainly short circuit some of the learning curve off of completing a project! Good luck!
Regards, Mark
-------------------- Scopes in the works-
Too many for putting down here! Favorites- 8" F/6, 8" F/4.72, 4.5" F/5.4, 14" F/4.455, all completed.
Edited by Mark Harry (09/07/08 05:22 AM)
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