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Parker Nite Fly
super member
Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 102
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I’ve been reading this forum trying to learn, which has caused me to pay more attention when observing. Sunday night I left my glasses on and noticed for the first time that I leave the eyecups rolled out. The 11x56 Obies I believe are often listed as having comfortable eye relief but to me, once I realized what I was doing, it seemed excessive. I think I actually prefer shoving my face into the glass for more of a Major Tom sensation. When I tried this I experienced blackout. I don’t know if it was due to eye relief or something else I was doing incorrectly.
I am curious what is considered average eye relief and what is your preference?
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Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15345
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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out of over 60 binoculars actually measured,
the average specified eyerelief is almost 19mm.
The highest was 24, the lowest 12mm.
the average "actual usabale" eyerelief was 14.7mm.
The highest was 25, the lowest 9mm.
About 1/3 of all those measured have actual eye relief from 13mm to 16mm.
For my own personal use, all with eyeglasses on;
With 17mm of usable eyerelief, I can get blackouts due to long eyerelief.
19-20mm of eyerelief is too long.
Many of my binoculars that are most comfortable have 14-15mm usable eyerelief. I'm still comfortable with 13mm. 11-12mm seems to be the minimum I can use with no noticable cutoff or very little cutoff.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 13688
Loc: Lancashire UK
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My experiences , preferences , eyeglasses and presumably facial structure around the eyes and nose must differ considerably from those of EdZ !
Many binoculars I've had experience with have had useable eye - relief no greater than 8mm , namely Telstar 10 x 50 , Helios 15 x 70 ( Orion Little Giant in USA ) and Orion Expanse 7 x 32 and perhaps a dozen other 1960s vintage Japanese Porros and more recent compact binoculars .
It's true that when not wearing glasses , even with my prominent brows / deep set eyes , it is possible to SCRUNCH the eyes into even the eyepieces of the models mentioned above and manage to see as much field of view as can be seen without moving the eyes around , but that is not a situation I enjoy or recommend .
When I wear glasses I need at least 16mm of useable eye relief to see the entire field of view , but I've also discovered that black - outs are a result of more than simply eye - relief , per se , be it too little or too much .
It is possible to have two different binoculars with the same useable eye - relief , one which will tend to present black - outs unless the eyes are VERY carefully placed while the other will be more forgiving .
It depends also upon the design and structure of the eyepieces .
I've also discovered that if a particular set of eyepieces prove troublesome in such regard , it is possible to counter the problem by " building up " or " spacing out " the perimeter of the eyepieces in much the same way as does the " centralising ring " provided by TeleVue for their Radian eyepieces .
I find it interesting that Ed considers 19mm of eye - relief too long , yet I know he has a penchant for Televue Radian and 32mm Plossl eyepieces -- both of which have more than 19mm of eye - relief !
Providing there is at least sufficient useable eye - relief to begin with , it is really all about careful eye - placement , whether that be made easier by inserting additional rings or washers , or by practice .
For me and people with facial bone structures like mine , without glasses , all other things being equal , which they seldom if ever are , I would estimate 12mm of ACTUAL eye - relief to be close to optimal .
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking about George S. Patton , then someone is not thinking
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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RussL
Music Maker
Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1975
Loc: Cayce, SC
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My Ultima DX 10x50s have a stated eye relief of 19mm, I believe. Even with my glasses on I experience blackout very easily. The most comfortable view is obtained with the eyecups twisted out about 3 to 4 mm. I can still see most of the AFOV this way and blackout is at least lessened. If I twist them out, say, 8 or 9 mm blackout is mostly gone, but I can only see about a 45-degree APOV. I think these binos just tend to blackout in general.
But, to answer your question directly, I guess I'm comfortable with something like 14 to 15mm of eye relief. 
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--Dawg, the Russell
"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)
Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Orion 120ST ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15345
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
I find it interesting that Ed considers 19mm of eye - relief too long , yet I know he has a penchant for Televue Radian and 32mm Plossl eyepieces -- both of which have more than 19mm of eye - relief !
In much the same way we measure the effective usable eye relief in binoculars, that can also be done in eyepieces. IIRC, my Radians have about 17mm of usable eye relief. not sure about the 32TV.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Parker Nite Fly
super member
Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 102
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The Oberwerk 11x56 have specs of 19mm don't know what the actual usable is but as I said to me it seemed a bit excessive. Seems you folks are agreeing that optimal is somewhat less.
So is 11mm (9 usable) unbearable for you?
Kenny - please explain to the unitiated (me) how to build up the eyepiece with washers. I can sort of picture what you mean but not really.
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Hardin DSH-8
Orion SpaceProbe 130ST
11x56 Oberwerk
7x35 Jason (don't laugh - you'll hurt its feelings)
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 13688
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Kenny - please explain to the unitiated (me) how to build up the eyepiece with washers. I can sort of picture what you mean but not really. >
PNF ,
This is one of those examples when a few photos really would serve better purpose than someone like me rambling on for a few thousand words !
To that end , given that I recently acquired a half - decent camera , sometime in the not too distant future I intend to post a photo - complemented little article on this very matter .
Basically , in addition to other types of washers available in the US and other parts of the world , there are in existence in the UK , what old school gas engineers such as myself refer to as being " gas meter adaptor washers " made from either rubber or neoprene .
If you look carefully at the ocular of any binocular you will see at the outermost edge ( closest to what the eyes can get to the actual eyepiece glass if one removed the eyeCUPS ) a " broad ring " which effectively restricts the field of view .
The key is to find " washers " that matches the outer and inner diameters of that " ring " .
The " depth " of such washers may vary greatly , from almost wafer thin to perhaps 2mm or 3mm .
In the " good old days " washers used for a certain gas meter adaptor happened to be of the same outside diameter as the inside diameter of many binocular eyecups , made of neoprene , and be 3mm deep , in which case it just so happened that one pushed into the rubber eyecups of , for example , Nikon SE binoculars , would effectively reduce the eye - relief by 3mm , or at least make it physically impossible for one to place their eyes into a position that causes an effect known as " blackout " or " kidney - beaning " , which is brought about by the eyes being placed closer to the binocular eyelenses than is necessary to be able to see the full field of view .
I hope this helps for now !
Thanks for your interest .
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking about George S. Patton , then someone is not thinking
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 597
Loc: Canada
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I have the Oberwerk 11x56 and for me it doesn't have enough eye relief (I bought it under the assurance that it would be enough). Eye relief requirements can vary a lot from one person to another; one person's 'too much' eye relief can be another's 'too little' and vice versa.
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tigerroach
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 509
Loc: Houston, TX
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About 15mm is good for me (I observe with my glasses on).
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Brian
TeleVue TV-102, Gibralter alt-az mount
Webster 14.5" f/4.3 truss dob *under construction*
Canon 10x30 & 15x50 IS binocs
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 13688
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< I have the Oberwerk 11x56 and for me it doesn't have enough eye relief. Eye relief requirements can vary a lot from one person to another. >
Patrick ,
Your last statement is so true , and is one thing I tried to emphasize in my last but one post to this thread , but upon re - reading it , now see that I did not do a very good job of doing so !
However , my main intended point ( although again not very well - made previously ) is that users can always DO SOMETHING about TOO MUCH eye - relief , but are very restricted in what they can do , if indeed anything , about TOO LITTLE .
Although I've never seen it in writing , I am convinced that providing " sufficient to excessive " eye relief in binoculars must present serious problems for optical designers .
It seems to me that whenever designers think they can get away with it , they effectively relegate the issue of eye - relief to being of secondary importance .
An example -- recently , from five top of the range 10 x 42 roof prism binoculars ( approaching £1000 to buy new in the UK ) I found only ONE which provides sufficient eye - relief for ME , when wearing glasses , to take in the whole field of view !
Another example -- as an eyeglass wearer I remain dissatisfied with the fact that for all it's vaunted reputation , the Fujinon 16 x 70 FMTSX has NOT got enough eye - relief for what I believe must be in excess of 80% of eyeglass wearers who could afford to buy such an item .
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking about George S. Patton , then someone is not thinking
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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kfred
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2162
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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My preference is about 15mm.
Fred
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Trixie
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Swedpat
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 1130
Loc: Boden, Sweden, Scandinavia
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For me a comfortable usable ER is around 17mm for eyeglasses. Usually that ER is provided by binoculars with a stated ER of 19-22mm.
Regards, Patric
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*2,3x40 Constellation View Wide-Bino
*Leupold 6x30 Yosemite
*Leupold Katmai 6x32
*Nikon Sporter I 8x36
*Swarovski SLCNew 7x42B
*Bresser (Lidl) 10x50
*Oberwerk 11x70
*Meade 5000 26mm Plössl, Vixen LV 10/5mm
Psalm 19:2
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Mr. Bill
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 3402
Loc: Just passing through.....
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15mm.....24 Pans seem perfect with eye socket just touching eyecups to view field stop.
Too much eye relief and you have to "float" your eyes off the eyecups and then blackout can be a problem.
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10x50 Fujinon binos + 16x70 Fujinon binos + UA UniMount
Oberwerk BT100 45 degree +24mm Pans + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
130mm TMB 130SS f/7 APO refractor
140mm Vixen f/5.7 Petzvel refractor
150mm f/8 homemade achromat "EE Barnard MW sweeper"
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr = f/5.4
15 inch f/5 Discovery "Galactic Cannon"
35mm Pan...26,22,17mm Naglers...13,6mm Ethos
Member IDA
Edited by Mr. Bill (09/07/08 01:18 PM)
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