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David Pavlich
Transmographied
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: blueman]
#2656806 - 09/22/08 03:56 PM
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I use the "Polar Alignment Correction" routine that is programmed into the Genini on the G-11 after doing a regular polar alignment with the polar scope and then a 3 star alignment and it does a pretty good job of the Polar Alignment, without drift aligning. If I feel the need I repeat the process a second time and it makes it 2x more accurate. This takes only a couple of minutes to perform each time. So, I do not have too much time invested in the Polar alignment. I have yet to drift align and with guiding my pictures come out quite nicely. 
However, if you wish to drift align, the G-11 knobs make it pretty easy to do.
Blueman
This is similar to doing 3 or 4 iterations of the CGE PA routine. It just gets better with every iteration and plenty good for most imaging situations.
David
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astrokido
space wanderer
Reged: 06/09/08
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: David Pavlich]
#2657160 - 09/22/08 07:02 PM
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So which mount will stay in top shape after a couple of years of normal use? That would be nice to know before buying I think.
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David Pavlich
Transmographied
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: astrokido]
#2657198 - 09/22/08 07:32 PM
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I would think either would do well as long as it isn't abused. If you balance everything well and don't stress the motors and gears, either should last a long time.
David
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JerryWise
Postmaster
Reged: 12/26/03
Loc: Lexington, SC
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: Ed B]
#2658140 - 09/23/08 09:18 AM Attachment (75 downloads)
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.... To me the comments concerning the CGE being the minimum to get into serious imaging are a little bit of a stretch. I have seen some absolutely high quality images produced using "lower" grade mounts. The big difference to me was the capacity. Yes the CGE has higher weight capacity and if that was the determining factor in image quality I would agree that the CGE is better. We all know that there is more to it than that. The skill of the operator is a much larger factor. .......
There is a lot more in the question than meets the eye. There are excellent images taken with lower quality mounts. With perfect seeing a CG-5 can take a much better image than an AP-1200 in marginal conditions. You won't find many out of the box lower quality mounts that will track for 5 minutes even with guiding. Some work will get them close. The CGE/G11 size mounts begin to take PE, load, gear mesh and strength to levels needed for imaging. Sort of a quality and construction thing.
But capacity not being the prime factor is absolutely correct. I just mounted up for some visual runs a lower capacity mount. Rated at 45 pounds, it was right at capacity with a big Takahashi FS-152 last night. The wind was high and the little mount worked hard keeping the long refractor on target. On a lark, I did a rough polar align holding the polar scope (I couldn't get the adapter out of my other mount) by hand looking through the axis of the mount. Then put a camera on the FS-152 and did a GOTO to NGC 7331. In the wind with long OTA tube, with rough polar align and first time a camera has been on the mount, this is the image. I didn't autoguide as the exposures were 1 minute.
I've worked for years to get images like this (it's not an easy hobby). Trying to make CGEs and CG-5s consistently perform like these high dollar mounts. This image is nothing special. Point is, almost no work went into it. It's more in the precision and construction as well as attention to detail than load capacity. This is the AP-Mach 1 mount at about twice the cost of a CGE/G11. Is it worth it? If you want that kind of precision, yep.
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: JerryWise]
#2658893 - 09/23/08 03:04 PM
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Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atlas?
I think it depends what you're putting on it. It's nice to have gear that's well made, but not all of us can afford it. My recommendation is to match the OTA and the gear riding on it with the mount. Short focal lengths and lighter loads don't require as beefy a mount as when imaging with long focal lengths and heavy gear.
My imaging setup payload is about 24 lbs and I have it on riding on a CG5-GT mount. As long as I get a good polar alignment, I can autoguide accurately for 5 minutes (or longer). I had a Sirius (HEQ5) for a short time and evaluated it to see if it made a difference for imaging with my setup. I had to conclude that for the focal lengths and weight, it was pretty much a wash. If I were going to increase the focal lengths, then yes, I'd probably need a beefier mount, but that's down the road.
I think it's pretty much the same scenario regarding the CGE/Atlas question posed in this thread. It's only worth it if the Atlas doesn't have the capacity to do what you want it to do.
Having said all that, the process developed for imaging is an important part of getting good images and having better gear can make that process a little easier. I think that developing a good process that works consistently is the hardest part of this hobby, and once the process is worked out, it's just a matter of doing the same thing over and over again.
Having less expensive gear can sometimes mean including an extra step in the process, but if it saves a little money, then that's the trade off you pay. If a better piece of gear simplifies the process and can be afforded, then go for it. Otherwise, don't worry about it...use what you have and can afford.
Patrick
Edited by Patrick (09/24/08 07:20 AM)
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MartyT
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/28/07
Loc: Kansas City
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: David Pavlich]
#2661011 - 09/24/08 04:39 PM
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I can't take credit for the ratchets or the Alt knobs. I believe I got the ratchet idea from Joe, gimme that Giordano's pizza, Cipriano and I know Joe gave me the link to McMaster for the knobs. Changing the grub Alt grub screws to the knobs is one of the single best and simple modifications that can be made to the CGE, by the way.
David
Man, I always find this stuff 30 seconds too late... Just ordered the CGE replacement knob set from ADM and then find that there's a cheaper source...
David, can you share the URL to McMaster-Carr for the knobs?
Thanks
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: MartyT]
#2661304 - 09/24/08 07:26 PM
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McMaster-Carr is rarely cheaper than anywhere else ... their stuff is usually some of the best quality and priced accordingly.
I didn't know ADM had replacements for the alt clamping bolts (grub screws). The CGE replacement bolt set I got from Anthony replaced all of the bolts on the pier to make setting up and breaking down the mount much easier.
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David Pavlich
Transmographied
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: MartyT]
#2661491 - 09/24/08 09:18 PM
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Quote:
I can't take credit for the ratchets or the Alt knobs. I believe I got the ratchet idea from Joe, gimme that Giordano's pizza, Cipriano and I know Joe gave me the link to McMaster for the knobs. Changing the grub Alt grub screws to the knobs is one of the single best and simple modifications that can be made to the CGE, by the way.
David
Man, I always find this stuff 30 seconds too late... Just ordered the CGE replacement knob set from ADM and then find that there's a cheaper source...
David, can you share the URL to McMaster-Carr for the knobs?
Thanks
No...you did alright. The knobs you ordered are not what I was talking about. The knobs I spoke of replace the set/grub screw for the Alt adj. Different animal. I have the Losmandy knobs for my CGE...basically the same thing that you bought from ADM.
David
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dpastern
super member
Reged: 01/01/09
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Re: Is CGE Worth Twice The Price Of The Orion Atla
[Re: Ed B]
#3003635 - 03/25/09 07:00 AM
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As someone new to astro imaging and quality EQ mounts, I'd logically agree with Ed's comments.
I've seen some excellent images from an EQ6 (or less) mount, provided the mount was accurately polar aligned, drift aligned, well balanced, and not over laden, and then guided using something like phdguide. Some of these images rival those taken by more expensive mounts. I've seen some average imagers with very expensive equipment taken well, let's just say, not very good images.
Take care with how you set things up, treat the mount well, and a cheaper mount will perform. Is the CGE worth 3 times the price? imho, no. Not unless you image with heavy loads that are beyond the ability of the EQ6 to handle.
I've found that Astronomy is like hi fi - it's a big you know what contest about who has the biggest, or most expensive piece of kit. Half the people with expensive setups probably don't really use them, or use them very well.
Dave
Quote:
I just purchased an Atlas (upgrading from a ASGT) so I just answered the Atlas vs CGE question. To me the comments concerning the CGE being the minimum to get into serious imaging are a little bit of a stretch. I have seen some absolutely high quality images produced using "lower" grade mounts. The big difference to me was the capacity. Yes the CGE has higher weight capacity and if that was the determining factor in image quality I would agree that the CGE is better. We all know that there is more to it than that. The skill of the operator is a much larger factor. I personally did not need the capacity at this time. Since astronomy equipment holds its value exceedingly well (>80%), I don't need that much capacity and my skill is still growing, there was no reason to spend that much money. In addition my imaging targets are wider field where I don't need the super high accuracy.
I bought a used Atlas. If I need to step up in terms of capacity then I can sell the Atlas without taking a huge hit and buy the CGE.
As with most of these things there is never a right or wrong answer. It all depends on money and what you want to do.
Ed
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