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Taylor
sage
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 250
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm looking towards replacing my eyepieces with Nagler T6's, which models and how many I have not decided on yet, probably 3 or 4 total. For my highest mag eyepiece, how would the 3.5mm Nagler Type 6 do against a TMB/BO 3.2mm Planetary eyepiece for planetary viewing and double star viewing? I will be using it with an Orion ED80mm and Celestron C6 f/10 SCT.
-------------------- Nextar 8" GPS Starbright XLT
WO EZ-Touch Gen 2 on Walnut tripod
Celestron C6 SCT
TheSky 6 Pro, MaximDL 5 Pro
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Taylor
sage
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 250
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm considering the 3mm Radian as well to compare against the Burgess 3.2mm Planetary. Any opinions?
I wear eyeglasses and the Radians are looking mighty fine.
Starting to consider buying a 3mm, 5mm, 10mm, and 18mm Radians by the end of the year, I think those would be a better purchase than a set of Nagler's since I wear glasses usually, and would end up saving a little cash in the end.
-------------------- Nextar 8" GPS Starbright XLT
WO EZ-Touch Gen 2 on Walnut tripod
Celestron C6 SCT
TheSky 6 Pro, MaximDL 5 Pro
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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2514
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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1) The eye relief is similar across all the T6s, which work fine for me as a non-eyeglass wearer. However, since you are an eyeglass wearer, the only way to know for sure if they'd work well for you is to try a T6 of any focal length with your scope and see - some eyeglass wearers have reported that T6s work just fine for them, others not so well. Perhaps a fellow astro-club member would have one they'd let you try in your scope at an upcoming observing session? The other way to try one out is to buy one used on Astromart - they go for around $225 used. If it did work out, fine, you have the nucleus for your collection; if not, you could resell it for most of what you paid.
2) I have the 13,11,9,7 &5mm T6s, and have considered adding the 3.5T6 for use with my 90mm Megrez refractor, for pretty much the same reason you want one - higher-mag planetary observing. However, instead I got a 2" 2x Powermate and use it with my 7mmT6 when I want a 3.5T6 equivalent, and as a result have much more versatility - the 7T6 is useful in my 90mm refractor many nights when the seeing, transparency, whatever simply don't support pleasing views at the magnification/exit pupil/light transmission that a 3.5T6 would provide. At the same time, the 2x Powermate causes negligible loss of light and no degradation of image or alteration of eye relief when used with my 7mmT6.
Something worth considering.
-------------------- Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
Edited by FirstSight (09/26/08 09:18 AM)
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Mr. Mike
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 855
Loc: Churchville, NY
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Quote:
I'm considering the 3mm Radian as well to compare against the Burgess 3.2mm Planetary. Any opinions? I wear eyeglasses and the Radians are looking mighty fine.
Starting to consider buying a 3mm, 5mm, 10mm, and 18mm Radians by the end of the year, I think those would be a better purchase than a set of Nagler's since I wear glasses usually, and would end up saving a little cash in the end.
I tried a T6 5mm Nagler and found the eye relief too short and I do NOT wear glasses so be forewarned! The problem is that I had to get my eye too close to the lens to take in that whole field of view. That, in turn, caused me to have to back away from the lens which effectively reduced that 82 degree FOV to about 60 degrees. That meant I was wasting all that FOV that I paid a ton of money for. Also, I saw reflections in the 5mm T6 I had which added to my disapppointment. Just didnt work for me. The 3.5mm will likely be the same or worse than the 5mm. Try before you buy or order from someone with a great return policy.
Radians, on the other hand were perfect for planetary and are very comfortable to use. I would suggest the Radians or the TMBs before any Nagler for high-power planetary and/or lunar study. The Naglers are better served being low to medium power eyepieces.
For an alternative, look into the Pentax XW line... you get 70 degrees field of view, terrific optics, and 20mm of eye relief comfort. You wont miss that extra 12 degrees, no way.
-------------------- Stellarvue NG 80mm ED
Meade 7x50 Binos
Pentax XW 5mm
Meade 5K UWA 8.8mm
Vixen LVW 13mm
Vixen LVW 22mm
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David E
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 1729
Loc: North Carolina
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Quote:
I'm considering the 3mm Radian as well to compare against the Burgess 3.2mm Planetary. Any opinions? I wear eyeglasses and the Radians are looking mighty fine.
Starting to consider buying a 3mm, 5mm, 10mm, and 18mm Radians by the end of the year, I think those would be a better purchase than a set of Nagler's since I wear glasses usually, and would end up saving a little cash in the end.
First, a few points: With powers over 80x with the 80mm and 150x with the C6 you are getting a small enough exit pupil that you won't need to wear eye glasses. In fact, unless you have a problem like cataracts I recommend NOT wearing them for high power viewing.
Just an educated guess here , but 3-4mm eyepieces are probably too much power for your C6.
Out of the three you mentioned my first choice would be a Radian. However I also have 5 and 7mm Vixen NLV Lanthanum's and I'd add that to you short list too. When I compare these two eyepieces with comparable BOTMB's and NT6's I prefer the Vixens. They are very comfortable to use and they are genuinely tack sharp right up to the edge. They also have less lateral color than the other two, and they are priced lower than the Radians. The NT6 is actually my planetary eyepiece of choice for my Dobsonian, since it is a muscle drive mount and I like the wide field of view for this scope.
-------------------- David E
So when at times the mob is swayed
To carry praise or blame too far,
We may choose something like a star
To stay our minds on and be staid.
-Robert Frost
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 1723
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Hello, Taylor.
Please.. Take this only as curious and constructive.
It is my opinion that NEITHER of these eyepieces will work well in your C6. They are simply way way overpowered for that scope as a planetary eyepiece. And if you WERE to use either of them, the exit pupil would be so tiny that even an eyegless wearer with horrible astigmatism will not need glasses.
And to buy a "Planetary" eyepiece for the smaller scope when the bigger scope will be a better planetary scope seems anti-intuitive to me.
A better choice for planetary use in the C6 would be something in the 7mm to 8mm range.
If eye relief is too tight, use a 15mm and barlow it.
All that being said, I have used the BO 3.2 and it was an impressive eyepiece on axis. In my 4" refractor, (a "Fast" scope but one with a flat field) it was only sharp in the very center of the field. But it was VERY sharp at the center.. I was impressed. But I barlowed a 7mm Nagler with a high quality barlow, and the outcome was pretty good.. Very difficult to tell them apart except that the Nagler was SOOOO much sharper off axis.. But on axis, they were much closer than I would have though.
So, if Planetary is your main goal, why even bother with the 80mm scope? The C6 SHOULD do better (My C5 was better than my 80mm ED scope on planets so your C6 should be even better than THAT...).
Anyway, if on axis performance is you MAIN goal, and eye relief is important, you can get a good quality Barlow (Televue or Celestron Ultima) and stick it behind a nice quality Plossl.
If on the other hand, you DO want good all around performance. Get a 7mm Nagler for your C6 as a "Planetary" eypeices and "General" use eyepice, and use it with a barlow for the 80mm ED so you can get reasobaly high powers and still have a beautifully sharp, wide field of view.
Just my thinking.. But why try to turn your 80ED into a planetary scope when you have a better planetary scope already...
Regards.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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j3ffr0
sage
Reged: 07/06/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Virginia
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I have Nagler T6s. I also wear glasses sometimes (but not for observing). The T6s do not have enough eye relief for a person to observe comfortably with glasses IMHO.
I'd encourage you to take a look at the Pentax XW. A good number of folks actually prefer them to Naglers and Radians optically. They have 20mm of eye relief and will work well with glasses.
-------------------- 10" Dob
127mm Mak
PST
35, 24 Panoptic; 16, 13, 9 Nagler
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2208
Loc: Vienna, VA
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The task is planetary viewing with eyeglasses and choices for consideration are: Nagler T6s, Radians, or BO/TMB Planetaries.
I've used all three extensively (I do not wear eyeglasses). The T6s I did not like for planetary. While excellent general purpose EPs affording wonderful wide-views, I felt their on-axis clarity was not as good as other eyepieces when dealing with planets. Eye relief, while also fine for non-eyeglass wearer, was still close to get the full 82 deg AFOV. So I imagine might be a bit difficult for you since you wear glasses. Given that it's also handy to have lots of focal lengths in small increments for planetary, the T6 line does not offer as much selection as the other two, and is also much more expensive with 4 EPs used costing you nearly $1000.
Radians and BOs both great in the eye relief department, but the Radian definitely feels like more comfortable distance. While the BOs advertise a 60 deg afov, it is smaller. Mine measured around 57 deg and the difference is readily apparent when comparing directly to a Radian. Between the two, overall, I feel the Radian gives better on-axis resolution for planets and shows more subtle low contrast details. For my eye I put it a clear notch above what the BO produces for me. Price-wise though, a bit of a different story as a used Radian will cost you around $100 more than a used BO. However, swinging the other way now, availability of the BOs is spotty and they are hard to come by since production is not regular thing with them. In addition, the newest BOs which I believe the 6mm may be ready, have an increased price tag and new will probably be around $100 I suspect and not $59 like the previous ones.
So working with a used price of $170 vs $75 (Radian vs BO), is the extra $100 worth it? For me the answer is yes. Besides providing planetary performance which always challenges or equals my best 4-element Orthos, they also provide excellent performance across all other targets, and do particularly well IMO on nebula (e.g., like M57) being nice and contrasty and also showing star colors in clusters and in doubles much more prominently than in other EPs. So given the better performance on low contrast planetary detail and the across the board excellent performance on other targets, plus the little wider AFOV at a full 60 deg and longer feeling eye relief, the Radians would get the nod from me (and have as I've recently replaced my BOs with Radians).
But regardless of any extra performance edge to the Radian and being that both are really good optical performers, price always drives everything, so the question becomes if you plan on getting say 4 EPs, the choice between these two really comes down to can you afford $680 vs $300 (used prices)?
For your 80mm, of course EPs at the shorter FLs in the Radian line would be best for Planetary. For your C6, which I also had, the 14mm, 12mm, 10mm, and 8mm would make a good range (I found that 12-10mm usually range produced the crispest image on the vast majority of evenings in my C6).
-Bill
-------------------- 250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
Edited by BillP (09/26/08 11:26 AM)
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Taylor
sage
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 250
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the great reply Bill, you pretty much answered everything I wanted to know.
All the reviews I read on the T6's made them sound amazing but I think they will be too tight for me, even with contacts in. I think the Radian's sound like they'll fit the bill for viewing the planets and all the other targets in the sky. I may grab one low power Nagler, possibly 22mm T4, for wide views, I'd like to try that one first before splunking down the $480 that it runs.
Also I have no desire to use barlows, tried them in the past and it wasn't for me, I'd rather insert the right focal length eyepiece for what I want to see from the get go.
Regarding the justification of cost, I just graduated from college and am buying the nice stuff finally, and I can easily justify the extra price tag of the Radian's as I plan on having them for a very long time.
-------------------- Nextar 8" GPS Starbright XLT
WO EZ-Touch Gen 2 on Walnut tripod
Celestron C6 SCT
TheSky 6 Pro, MaximDL 5 Pro
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Phil Frederick
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/19/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Seattle, WA & La Paz MX
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Hi Taylor,
Just one more vote for the Radians. I've used all three EPs and found that the comfort in using the Radians was the deal-maker for me.
I also have the 22 and 17 T4 Naglers and find these to be excellent EPs in both my 5" and 6" Intes Maks. And for wide field views with your 80ED, well, they're both just super!  Good luck!
-------------------- Phil
Intes M603 6" Mak
Intes M500 5" Mak
Astro-Tech 80LE CF
Orion 127 Mak
Orion ST120 f/5
Orion ST80 f/5
SV F50 Sparrowhawk
SV F60 Biggerhawk
Tak Teeguls, SV Stableock, Bogen475s, Oberwerk Jarrah, and a rebuilt Astroview tripod with Walnut/Oak legs.
...Naglers, Radians, LVWs, BO/TMBs, Stratus', 32 & 38 SWA's
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Tom Trusock
   
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 27299
Loc: Alternate Reality (TM)
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Quote:
The Naglers are better served being low to medium power eyepieces.
Completely (and strongly) disagree.
YMMV.
-------------------- There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2208
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Taylor,
Ahhhh...that's a great time...just graduating from college and having a "real" job with "real" earning power. I did the same thing way back I recall and finally got myself some good stuff: which way back then was the Celestron Super C-8 with Beyers worm gear and this new wierd stuff on the market (TV Wide Fields and Nagler T0's). Was really nice and more than 15 years before I traded those things out to move up to some more current things
-------------------- 250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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KWB
Postmaster
   
Reged: 09/30/06
Posts: 7619
Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.1646Meters
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Quote:
Quote:
The Naglers are better served being low to medium power eyepieces.
Completely (and strongly) disagree.
YMMV.
I'm wondering how someone that hasn't owned and extensively used low and medium powered eyepieces of a particular design can even begin to assess how their best utilization might possibly be. Point very well taken,Tom.
-------------------- Kenny
"When dealing with a mystery,choose the most unlikely of the likely possibilities"-Sherlock Holmes
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KWB
Postmaster
   
Reged: 09/30/06
Posts: 7619
Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.1646Meters
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Hello Taylor
Just to show you one size doesn't fit all,here one vote for the T6 being a pretty darn good planetary eyepiece. I'm an eyeglass wearer that doesn't need them in shorter focal length eyepieces and most particular when combined with smaller aperture,longer focal length refractors. Eye relief near perfect for me,no blackouts or kidneybeaning due to eye placement issues. Many of us are different in our requirements and I do not care for eyepiece designs that feature a lot of eyerelief like a Radian or a Hyperion in shorter focal lengths. When my eyeglasses are needed with exit pupil sizes over 2mm,then send in the long ER designs.
IMO the contrast of the T6 series is quite good,good enough to have effectively obsoleted my ortho collection and nicely phased out my ever again using a plossl eyepiece for planetary or double star usage. I like an 82º design at higher powers when using an undriven telescope like my Dob. It makes tracking an object a snap at 200X with a little practice.
Don't let any one persons opinion sway you away from making an eyepiece choice. Solicit a number of others before making yours. In answer to your original question as long as money is of no concern,the BO loses out.
-------------------- Kenny
"When dealing with a mystery,choose the most unlikely of the likely possibilities"-Sherlock Holmes
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Kolenka
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Taylor,
Ahhhh...that's a great time...just graduating from college and having a "real" job with "real" earning power. I did the same thing way back I recall and finally got myself some good stuff: which way back then was the Celestron Super C-8 with Beyers worm gear and this new wierd stuff on the market (TV Wide Fields and Nagler T0's). Was really nice and more than 15 years before I traded those things out to move up to some more current things
Kinda reminds me of my own story as well... just with a larger gap. 
Was heavy into astronomy as a kid, and always wanted to look up, but never really got into it with a tiny department store scope on a GEM I never figured out how to work (never figured out it needed to be aligned first). So I devolved into an reader of publications and nothing more. It took me three years out of college to finally realize I had buying power to get something better and should try getting back in. I don't regret it one bit.
And yeah, enjoy this period of your life while you can. You have earning power, and you aren't yet in the position that you need to use it to raise a family (I hope). You will find that this is about the only time you can get that shiny LCD TV, big scope, or expensive eyepieces in your lifetime until you retire (unless you are extremely lucky).
-------------------- Meade 10" LX200R
Orion 80ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XSi, TIS DMK 31AF03
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3226
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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As for eye relief, I think T6s are fairly good at accommodating the eye being just outside the nominal eye relief distance, i.e. you can trade field for eye relief quite smoothly. This isn't the case with B/TMBs. Although the B/TMBs do start with more eye relief, they (except for the 9mm) have some spherical aberration of the exit pupil that can be annoying with lunar observation if you allow yourself to back off any from the optimal eye position. I always liked the B/TMBs for the planets proper, not so much for the moon. T6s, on the other hand, are really quite versatile. Time marches on, though. My T6 days appear to be over.
-------------------- Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt
- 35mm Panoptic
- 13mm Ethos
- 5mm Tak LE
- 2x TV Barlow
- Canon 10x30IS Binoculars
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KWB
Postmaster
   
Reged: 09/30/06
Posts: 7619
Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.1646Meters
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I no longer have any T6 eyepieces in my collection,either. I see an 8mm Ethos on the horizon.
-------------------- Kenny
"When dealing with a mystery,choose the most unlikely of the likely possibilities"-Sherlock Holmes
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2208
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Tyler, I forgot to ask...what eyepieces do you currently use for planetary in your 80mm and C6? -Bill
-------------------- 250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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Taylor
sage
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 250
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Bill, Nothing actually. I just purchased the ED80 and upgraded the focuser and finder on it and hypertuned the LXD75 myself, and finished all of that just a week and a half ago, and its been raining ever since. I'm getting ready to purchase a nice diagonal and eyepieces and want to buy the best from the get-go instead of playing the long and boring upgrade game. Like others have said, this is the only time in my life I'll be able to do it until retirement, and the way I see it TeleVue eyepieces from the time when Al first began are still going strong and demanding a premium, so I see it that these eyepieces that I purchase now will definitely last a loooong time. Plus, for me, medical school is the next big step, and I will not be able to afford a single nice thing so I want something to entertain me and that will last while I'm in school (again).
Thanks for all the input so far guys, lots of good pros and cons for the TeleVues. I'm going to stay away from the Pentax XW if we're going up against the Radian's with them, the price new or used is much, much more.
-------------------- Nextar 8" GPS Starbright XLT
WO EZ-Touch Gen 2 on Walnut tripod
Celestron C6 SCT
TheSky 6 Pro, MaximDL 5 Pro
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Mr. Mike
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 855
Loc: Churchville, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Naglers are better served being low to medium power eyepieces.
Completely (and strongly) disagree.
YMMV.
I'm wondering how someone that hasn't owned and extensively used low and medium powered eyepieces of a particular design can even begin to assess how their best utilization might possibly be. Point very well taken,Tom.
Well, I owned(sold) a 5mm T6 and was able to try a 7mm T6 and in both instances I just didnt get as much out of them as I felt I should have. I was "extensively" annoyed, to be honest. The eye relief didnt work, IMO. And, Im not the only one as evident by a few others chiming in with the same concern in various threads.
So, you see, since the low to medium powered Naglers never get any talk of eye relif issues or other problems, its safe to say that the low to mid power units take better advantage of the line's strenghts. Thats what I meant and Im sticking to it.
Capiche?
-------------------- Stellarvue NG 80mm ED
Meade 7x50 Binos
Pentax XW 5mm
Meade 5K UWA 8.8mm
Vixen LVW 13mm
Vixen LVW 22mm
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