moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: Wisconsin
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Quote:
...chinese produced binoculars are at the moment a lottery between acceptable and junk.
I would have to agree. I on occassion checked some in the brick and motar of a major on-line scope and binocular retailer. That has been my experience.
About 2 years ago, due to the constant praise of a particular range of well know Chinese 70mm binoculars, I ordered a pair. The vendor, who shall remain nameless, was excellent in the service area of their business. I in all tried and returned 3 copies of the same binocular, ending with the last fully refunded. The contrast was very good, as was the light grasp.
But the coma or something akin to it! It was like looking at a still shot of the view screen on the bridge of the Enterprise when the ship was at warp.
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"Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here"
Dual mount/ambient temperature Hominid Widefield Photon Collectors®
Pleistocene™ ˝ watt Wetware Integration Unit.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2490
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
As for Chinese-made binoculars,there is still some way to go before they rival the japanese or german models,you can read my review of the new celestron Ultima DX in this forum,it's pretty sad...chinese produced binoculars are at the moment a lottery between acceptable and junk.
Stephane
I can NOT agree with the above generalization about Chinese binos. I would rate many of the better Chinese binos availabe today quite a bit HIGHER than "Acceptable".
You can read Barry Simon's comments about the Garrett Optical Signature Series here:
Barry Simon Reviews the GO SS 15X70
Roland Christen feels the best 70mm binos from China today are good enough to be carry the Astro Physics label:
http://www.astro-physics.com/
Here is another point of view from our friend in Italy. Pier has reviewed many fine binouclars from Miyauchi & Vixen...
Gerneral Hi-T 10X50, 15X70 etc.
I don't have first hand experience with the Celestron Ultima DX but my experience of owning half dozen Chinese binos from 8X25 to 20X80 is much more favorable than "junk" or acceptable. Japanese 70-100 mm binos seem to have more consistent QC and solid mechanical construction and they are priced accordingly. Spend the same $300-$700 on a pair of Chinese Giants and you are likely to get more performace for your money. Purchase a $99 Chinese 20X80 and it's like playing the lottery; I like the odds with a pair $280 Oberwerk 20X80 TWP.
I paid $340 for my Japanese Orion 20X80 in 2001, $149 for my Burgess Optical Chinese 20X80 LW in 2003. I use the BO LW nearly every time I observe, the Orion stays in the carrying case as a spare. My Orion is 2 lbs heavier, have narrower APFOV and is only sharp to 2/3 from center...... Burgess no loger carries the 80mm LW but I would buy another LW from Oberwerk or Garrett. I would NOT buy another Japanese Orion 20X80 even if they were on sale for $170.
I have a pair of Eagle Optics Platimun Ranger 8X32 roof and a pair of Leupold Wind River Olympic 12X50 roof. Both models are priced between $350-$400. Other than the size of the objectives they look like they came off the same production line: same prism housing, same focuser, same twist-up eye cups. Excellent built quality. Optics are bright, sharp, with very good color fidelity. Life time warranty. I have had both for about 3 years.
In 2005 I was ready for an upgrade to a premium European bino. I wanted to buy a pair I would be proud to own & use for the rest of my life. I went to a local NJ Audubon store to look. Spend a long time looking thru the best binos from Leica, Nikon, Swaro ans Zeiss. They all have very impressive optics. I also had my EO Ranger and Leupold with me. Every time I put down a pair $1,500 L, S, Z premium bino I would pick up the EO or the Leupold to compare. I thought those premium Europeans would completely outclass my $350 mid- priced binos...they did not. They were MUCH closer than I expected. I love the look and feel of the Leica Ultravid, and I try hard to justify getting a pair. But optically they may be 5-10% better at most, not 3X better. I didn't hand over my credit card that day....I am stil using the EO and Leupold today. I can buy just about any binocular I wish but I don't have a pressing desire to replace either anytime soon.
My EO Ranger is Made in Japan, My Leupold is marked China. To me the only difference is the label marking their country of origin.
Erik D
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11897
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While I do not want to encourage a continuation of what has become an off topic subject, I feel I must point out that some people seem to be forgetting here some things that we have learned from our own "in house" expert on binocular manufacture: Bill Cook has made it plain that the companies that contract with Chinese factories themselves control the quality of the binoculars they import. Those factories can make excellent binoculars or dicey ones, depending on what is ordered. It has nothing to do with a national capacity or incapacity for optical construction.
I will also add, for the sake of Kevin and Zach of Oberwerk and Garrett Optics, respectively, that blanket condemnations of Chinese manufactured binoculars are not only short on accuracy but unfair to them. Oberwerk and GO have made available excellent binoculars to us at excellent prices. The fact that Japanese or German/Austrian optics may still have a performance edge takes nothing away from the Chinese optics. This is not a polarized field with one pole being positive and the other negative. There are positives at each end of the field.
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Joad,
Re the deletion of my latest post: what does "Terms of service infractions" mean? Did I step on the toes of some "sacred cows" here? 
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11897
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Quote:
Joad,
Re the deletion of my latest post: what does "Terms of service infractions" mean? Did I step on the toes of some "sacred cows" here?
Mike Rapchak Jr.
As per the Terms of Service:
Posts that are not respectful of other individuals (be they members or not) are not welcome here.
No posts of a political nature.
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Joad,
My apologies if anything I said was offensive to anyone; I had not intended that. Also, I wasn't aware that political comments are verboten.
Many thanks for exlaining this to me. 
Mike R.
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
I don't like to pop anyones bubble but I am pretty certain the Vixen ARK series are NOT made in Japan.
Rick
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Stan,
Still not 100% sure, tho. Perhaps they were made in both Japan and China during different years? Maybe someday we'll know for certain...! 
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Mike,
Please look on BOTH sides of the FRONT hinge, between the front objective lenses, if made in Japan, it will say Japan, or, have a JB#.
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (09/25/08 05:42 PM)
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Stan,
P.S. Although his review was done a year before I got my pair[s], Pier seemed to believe that the Vixen ARKs are/were made in Japan. I hope the link works; if not, it's on the 384-bino-mini-reviews page.
Mike Rapchak Jr.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=binoculars&Number=688343&Forum=
Edited by EdZ (09/26/08 06:06 AM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12515
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Please look on BOTH sides of the FRONT hinge, between the front objective lenses, if made in Japan, it will say Japan, or, have a JB#.
There are no such markings on the Fujinon FMT SX binoculars, yet they are made in Japan. So this would be inconclusive.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
There are no such markings on the Fujinon FMT SX binoculars, yet they are made in Japan. So this would be inconclusive.
edz
The Fujinon FMT-SX binoculars have NO front hinge between the front objective lenses, at the far end of the binoculars, as do the Giant ARK binoculars. 
However, the cap that screws into the tripod adapter hole used to say, FUJINON MADE IN JAPAN. Some also came with the little gold seal.
IF there IS anything on the front hinge of the Vixen Giant ARK binoculars, at least he will know 'where' to look for it. It usually does NOT stand out, so, it is very easy to look past it, unless some effort is made to search for it.
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Stan,
I'm looking; so far I don't see anything...!
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12515
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Quote:
There are no such markings on the Fujinon FMT SX binoculars, yet they are made in Japan. So this would be inconclusive.
edz
The Fujinon FMT-SX binoculars have NO front hinge between the front objective lenses, at the far end of the binoculars, as do the Giant ARK binoculars.
However, the cap that screws into the tripod adapter hole used to say, FUJINON MADE IN JAPAN. Some also came with the little gold seal.
IF there IS anything on the front hinge of the Vixen Giant ARK binoculars, at least he will know 'where' to look for it. It usually does NOT stand out, so, it is very easy to look past it, unless some effort is made to search for it.
I've looked at some of my other well known Japanese made binoculars. NONE of them have any outward signs, labels or markings to indicate they were made in Japan. On the other hand, I'm in posession of more than one binocular that has Japan on the screw cap and I'm very aware that these are made for Nikon binoculars, a Japanese company, but they are manufactured in China.
Not being able to discover a JB marking on the exterior, or some paper label that states made in Japan, is an inconclusive indicator to where the binocular is made.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
Not being able to discover a JB marking on the exterior, or some paper label that states made in Japan, is an inconclusive indicator to where the binocular is made.
edz
NUTS! So much for the makings of a GOOD mystery. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Mike R.
This just came up on astromart.com
http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=590240
Enlarge the picture and take a look at the front hinge on this Vixen 20x80mm
http://www.astromart.com/common/image_popup.asp?image=/images/classifieds/590000-590999/590240-3.jpg
This one has JAPAN, as well as the number.
Edited by hallelujah (10/11/08 09:48 PM)
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2490
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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The Vixen 20X80s listed in the Amart ad above looks the same as the the giant binos shown in my Vixen Catalog #1008 from around 2002. (Vixen N America was a Division of TeleVue then). This same model was also carried by Orion( Orion Megaview) and Celestron( 20X80 Giant Deluxe). My Orion catalog from 2001 stated they were "Made for Orion in Japan" and carried a 5 year warranty, price was $489. They were the last 80 mm giant binos from Japan before the Chinese 80mm binos enter the US market.
This CN review has more detials:
http://cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=182
Those Vixen 80mm and Orion Megaviews( 15X, 20X and 30X80) are quite different from the ARKs offer by Vixen later.
ERik D
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1639
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Erik,
Thanks very much for that information.
I always seem to be looking for the discontinued models from JAPAN and really appreciate the folks, like yourself, who save older catalogs, and have useful tidbits of product info. to share.
I tried saving older catalogs, but, our computer desk is buried under stacks of current catalogs and binocular reviews that I have printed out from CN. I had to start throwing out some of the older stuff so I could see my moniter. 
Stan
BTW, thanks for the CN review, I really enjoyed readinig it.
--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (10/12/08 03:41 PM)
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Stan,
No, my pair don't have the "Japan" cap on them. Also, mine are a different (newer) design. These look like Celestron Skywatchers.
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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Mike Conley
sage
Reged: 09/23/07
Posts: 266
Loc: NW Ohio
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Just picked up a pair of 12x80's on fleabay. I should have them next week. I could see from the photos they are marked Japan as is the shipping box. From the pics they look like they have very nice build quality.
Mike
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