mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi,
I'm waiting for my Orion Mak 150mm to arrive, and I own a Canon 40D from Hutech that I still need to figure out how to piggyback on my Mak with flexion issues. All of this equipment will mount on a HEQ5 PRO (AKA Sirius).
I would like to find a relatively inexpensive color camera (or webcam) that I can use for autoguiding (I own a laptop), and for AVI planet sequences like Mars. I would love to have enough resolution that I could see the south polar ice cap or the small red spot in Jupiter. I would like for the camera or webcam to be cooled to eliminate noise and to allow me relatively long exposures (i.e. potentially for DSO use in the long term).
I plan to connect the camera (webcam) to my Mak or to an small refractor.
Is there anything in the market that will severely damage my bank account and will still do a fair job for these type of uses?
Thanks for your help,
M.
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi again,
I'm not getting any responses, so it may be my fault for ranting too much and not stating the question in the right way.
Here I go again: I'm looking for camera (or webcam) that I can use for autoguiding and planets (i.e. AVI's of Mars). I don't mean to imply autoguiding AND planets at the same time. I just want to have the flexibility to do one or the other.
If I'm doing (i.e. AVI) planets (and I specified Mars because I need a camera with enough resolution to pick up the polar cap), I will be running the mount on PEC. If I'm doing DSO with my Canon 40D, I would like for the same camera to be used as an autoguiding camera.
If you could provide some insights, I will really appreciate it.
Thanks a lot for your help,
M.
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Paul Rix
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 2924
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
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A Philips SPC900NC webcam will easily pick up the ice caps on Mars (when Mars is near opposition). If you want to go up market then the DMK cameras are hard to beat for planetary work without spending over $500. The Philips webcam can be picked up for less than $100 and does a very good job (probably the best bang for buck when starting out in planetary imaging). For long exposures I would get a different camera that is specifically designed for the task (ie the Meade DSI series or Orion's Starshoot cameras)..
You may want to check out Celestron's NexImage too (basically a repackaged webcam for $99)...
Here are some of my NexImage shots of Mars from 2005 to give you an idea of what the cheap webcams are able to do..
These were taken through my 10in LX200..
I hope that helps a little.
--------------------
Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
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NyxAither
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 835
Loc: Arlington VA
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I have an spc900nc and I don't think it is really powerful enough to use for tracking \=. Maybe someone will have a solution.
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Thomas
✸Orion XT8i✸Orion 80-T✸CG5 GT Mount ✸Meade DSI II Color✸Meade DSI (THANKS TODD N!!!)✸Orion 4.5" Reflector OTA✸Trusty Mac Powerbook G4✸1960's Gilbert 3" telescope✸10x50 binoculars✸SPC900NC✸
..::*~*Clear Skies*~*::..
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi Paul, As per NyxAither's comment on autoguiding, can any of the cameras that you are suggesting be used for autoguiding? Thanks for your help, M.
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5379
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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L&P cameras usually aren't cooled because there's no need for cooling given the short exposures they use. Also, since the most common L&P cameras are relatively inexpensive (<$100 for webcams, about $100 for LPI/NexImage) and since L&P imaging is so different than dees ky imaging it's common to use an L&P camera for L&P imaging and a DSO camera for DSO imaging. Some webcan can be modified for long exposures and cooling, but these are custom-mods, I'm not aware of any off-the-shelf cameras that are configured that way. Some deep sky cameras can be used for L&P imaging (the Meade DSI III come to mind), but that's not their primary function.
Soooo, if it were me, I'd look at picking up a Phillips SPC900NC (or similar) for L&P imaging and save up for a deep sky camera.
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi John,
Thank you. At this point, I no longer care about DSO. I'm only caring about doing planets and autoguiding.
I can see that the cameras that Paul mentioned can be used for Planets, but my question now is: can any of these cameras (i.e. Philips, DMK, NexImage, other?) be used for autoguiding too?
It seems that some people have some concerns about using the Philips for autoguiding and probably that applies to NexImage too, how about DMK's? Can they be used for autoguiding? By the way, are DMK's webcams too? Can they produce an AVI file too at 30fps?
Thanks again for all your help,
M.
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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By the way, I just found this article of somebody using an SPC900NC for autoguiding. Interesting!!! Anybody has any experience with this configuration?
M.
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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OK, I found that you can do autoguiding with a DMK 640X480 camera which it is the resolution as an SPC900NC. Well, if you can do it with a DMK at this resolution, why couldn't you it with an SPC900NC?
M.
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5379
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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There's a bit of a mismatch between L&P cameras and cameras used for autoguiding. L&P cameras are typically used to image bright targets, high sensitivity is generally not an issue. When autoguiding you want high sensitivity to give you the best opportunity to find a useable guide star within the guide scope's field of view. So, while you can use an L&P camera for guiding (and several years ago it was fairly common to do so), they often require fairly bright guide stars (magnitude 8ish or so).
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi John,
This makes sense. How do you measure sensitivity in a L&P camera? And are all the L&P cameras the same when it comes to sensitivity?
Thank you!
M.
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Paul Rix
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 2924
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
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The DMK21AU04.AS is capable of longer exposures than an un-modified webcam. Being a monochrome camera it is also more sensitive. Another advantage is that the unit is a USB 2.0 device which allows it to transfer uncompressed data at a faster framerate (up to 60 frames per second). Of course, the DMK is 4 x the cost of a SPC900NC webcam and to be frank, although the images from the DMK are noticeably sharper, I am not sure if I could say they are 4x better (just my personal opinion of course) especially when you are starting out.
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Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
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Qkslvr
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/23/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: NE Ohio, US
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I use a SPC900 for guiding, it doesn't have a lot of sensitivity (depending on the scope it's on I have found). But I found a $20 vivitar 600mm scope, and mounted it on a adjstable ball type camera mount, put a decent finder scope on it, and now I can always find something to guide on.
I also built a cooler for it, it helps, but not enough if you're limited to a fixed small fov. Plus I think condensation from it dripped into my dslr and ruined it.
My current setup works much better.
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Mike
N8/CG-5/40D
Coming sometime/Maybe FrankenRebel
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi Paul,
This is very helpful. Which star magnitude do you think the DMK could track?
Thanks for your help,
M.
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clitherowclan
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 527
Loc: Fife Scotland
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Doing both auto guiding and planetary work can be a bit difficult. The webcams are OK for bright object avis like the moon and planets but unless you get one modified with a mono chip, which is gonna cost you a lot extra, you will be limited to guideing on stars of around 6th magnitude or brighter when using one to guide for your DSLR. This will work. I have used a SPC900NC and a Logitek quickcam for guiding but you can spend an age getting a bright enough guide star on the chip. If you try this look at PHD guider (freeware)from Stark industries; it works a treat. On the other hand you might be able to pick up a second hand Meade DSI Mk1 for the same sort of money as the Phillips webcam (for a colour version, the more sensitive 'pro' version will cost you a bit more). I use an old DSI pro with PHD guider and rarely have to search for a guide star. The camera is usually sensitive enough to have some kind of usable star in the field of view wherever you point it. It is possible to do planetary work with a Meade but it is unlikely to give you as good a result as almost any decent webcam will. You can also use the Meade for unguided exposures of brighter deep space objects with good results, as an alternative to your DSLR.
Just a thought
Regards,
Alan C.
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Scottish Astronomer, Firstlight Instruments 10 inch F6.3 Newtonian, Helios 8inch F5 Newtonian and ED80 Apo on driven EQ5. Various cheap cameras.
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Hi Alan,
These are the specs for DSI PRO right?
CCD Sensor
High Sensitivity Sony® ExView HAD™ Monochrome CCD Sensor
Pixels
510 x 492 pixels (250,000 pixels)
Pixel Size (in microns)
9.6 microns (W) x 7.5 microns (H)
A/D Conversion
16-bit (greater image depth and contrast)
Min. – Max. Exposure Time
1/10,000 of a second to one hour
Housing
Anodized die-cast aluminum
USB Compatibility
High Speed 2.0 and 1.1
Size / Weight of product
3.25" x 3.25" x 1.25"/ 10 oz.
M.
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clitherowclan
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 527
Loc: Fife Scotland
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Yes, that looks about right. It would make a great guide camera for your DSLR and can take decent images of smaller deep space objects with exposures of around 15 to 30 seconds. This image of M27 was taken with mine using a stack of 15 second exposures with the final image given a log stretch to bring up the faint stuff; sorry I haven't got the LRGB version on this laptop only the lumin frame but you can see it is a usable camera. If you really are going to do a lot of planetary work I would still recomend the webcams and the philips in particular; if you can get one. After all in a years time these Mk1 DSI pros will be going for peanuts on e-bay as theMk2 start to trickle onto the second hand markets.
Cheers,
Alan C.
--------------------
Scottish Astronomer, Firstlight Instruments 10 inch F6.3 Newtonian, Helios 8inch F5 Newtonian and ED80 Apo on driven EQ5. Various cheap cameras.
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mcbbcn
member
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Portland, OR
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Alan,
Thanks for sharing this great picture, and thanks for sharing your insights.
M.
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