Joe Z
member
Reged: 05/24/08
Posts: 37
Loc: NJ, USA
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While doing some research into a new set of binos, I was suprised to learn my Orion Vista 7x50 Binos were not recommended. Not to due to their optics, which I feel are excellent by the way, but due to their magnification configuration. I've read the points on exit pupil and they being 7.1mm is a bit excessive for most. But the reason I chose them is that most people could hold them steady without a mount or bracing themselves.
I've tried 10x50's but the view through the 7x50's is much steadier for me. When reading the reviews and recommendations, it just seems this criteria is hardly mentioned for the 7x50 class, or even discussed much in the comparisons between the smaller binos. If the view is not steady, how good can it be? Aren't the 7x50's measurably better for most? Seeing is a subjective measurement of the sky's steadiness for viewing. Why not some sort of "seeing" measurement for binos? Wouldn't steadiness trump exit pupil?
Just some thoughts. Its not like I'm trying to justify a past purchase or anything like that. We don't do that stuff around here.
-------------------- JZ
XT6
XT12i
AT-66ED
PST
Orion Vista 7x50, GO 20x80 Binos
Ultrascopic 30mm
Hyperion 17mm
Hyperion 8-24mm Zoom
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richard7
sage
Reged: 11/02/07
Posts: 485
Loc: Sacramento
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The key thing to remember in astronomy is to use what you have as best you can. The field of view in the 7X50's is probable better than the 10X50's anyway. With all things being equal, the higher the magnification, the dimmer the image. If the image is good in what you have then start there. Probably the reason for recommending the 10X50's over the 7X50's is the better magnification with no difference in weight. Both Orion Vistas weight in at 1.8 lbs so hand holding either should be no problem
-------------------- Richard Trost
Orion 130st, Ioptron e/r80
Meade 10x50, Konusvue 20x80, Zhumell Tachiyon 25x100
Coffee thermos and cup
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12588
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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A few issues that get raised in some of the handholding or 7x50 discussions are
it is almost always magnification that is the limiting factor in handholding, not weight.
Most people find 10x50 to be about their limit for handholding. That doesn't say that a 7x wouldn't be less noticable for shake, just that people find their comfort limit at 10x.
So why do people even consider going up to 10x? Because 10x shows far more than 7x. Smaller objects. More stars. Fainter objects. Therefore more small faint objects.
A lot of people can't use the entire 7.1mm exit pupil. If your eyes are only 6mm then that 7x50 for you is acting like a 7x42. If that's the case then you might go for an 8x42 instead. Same aperture and just a bit higher power.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1007
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Joe, 10x50 shows more, 12x60 more yet, 16x70 still more, etc. But if it's so shaky it's no fun for you, well then it's no fun. The bino fans here are all over the place in what size they like and whether they stand up flat footed and hold them, sit in a chair, or mount on a sturdy special support. It's all good, and several of us are quite nutty for our 7x50's, which show staggeringly more than unaided vision. Be happy. Ron
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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If 7x50's weren't good at anything, no one would manufacture them, no one would buy them, and no one would use them. Of course they are good.
Some of use PREFER more magnification, & some of us NEED more magnification because of our age and the condition of our eyes.
Higher mag. gives increased image size and more details. For example, take a look at Jupiter at 7x and SEE how much detail is visible.
Everything has its place and purpose. Enjoy what you have until you are ready to move up.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=107
-------------------- Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (09/30/08 06:25 PM)
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mercedes_sl1970
member
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Canberra, Oz
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Stick with the 7x50s if you like them. I've recently "rediscovered" 7x50s and just love the ease with which they can be used and what can be seen through them. I think the idea of a seeing/steadiness measure is an excellent idea - of course there are many factors at stake, as mentioned above.
Andrew
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4426
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In 2003 I took my fuji 7x50s to New Zealand and observed all but one of the southern Caldwell objects, in 2004 I took them to the east coast for the Venus transit, with the assurance that the airlines couldnot destroy them in my checked bags
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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brentwood
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/05
Posts: 637
Loc: BC Canada
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For years and years, the recommended binoculars for astronomy were 7x50. Yes, if you're a bit older, you are not taking advantage of the full light gathering aperture, BUT the exit pupil is still over 7mm and therefore you can maintain your view easier than if it were only 5mm.
-------------------- Big telescope.Small telescopes.
Ridiculous binocular collection
I've cut it twice and it's still too short.
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StarStuff1
sage
   
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 438
Loc: East Tennessee
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And...if you are older and have 5mm entrance pupils like me you can have slight movement and still see the exit pupil.
This was one reason for the popularity of 7X50s in American combat units during WWII. The GI in their expected excitement on the battlefield could more easily find the exit pupils on 7X50s as compared to, say, 6X30s.
Even though there are some 8X42 porro bins out there they seem to be rare. I have a couple of 8X40ish range bins and find them to be pretty much "just right" for hand held astronomy. Even though still useable, 10X50s shake a little too much for me for extended hand holding.
-------------------- Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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vincentdsnt
member
   
Reged: 03/16/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Ellijay, Ga.
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Joe, I have a 7X50 set, I will own them for yrs to come. I think of my 7X as easy viewing, mellow and relaxed. I have other powered binos,8X,10X, ect... I 7X will stay.
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desertrefugee
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 529
Loc: Arizona
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7x50s were the first pair I ever had. I have about 20 various flavored pairs now.
A nice 7x50 would probably be the last pair I'd sell - with the possible exception of a really good 7x35. Both are extremely versatile.
-------------------- "Look now upon the River of Heaven, Sky-Road of the Immortals, White with the star-frost of a billion years".
+++
-Darrell
Reflectors (114, 150, 254mm), Refractors (60, 76.2, 80, 120), MCT (125), way too many Binoculars
Cave Creek/Carefree, AZ
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
  
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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No....
-------------------- 10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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kfred
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2005
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Well, I got 12x60's and 7x50's. The 12x60's do show more then the 7x50's however, I like the 7x50's for their weight.
Fred
-------------------- River Cam - Cambridge England
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BobinKy
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 950
Loc: Country road
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Another vote for the ease of view due to the 7.1mm exit pupil.
And if you want to sample the ultimate 7x50 experience, try the Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50. In many situations the observing experience champions over mere objects in the eyecups.
-------------------- Bob
38° Kentucky, USA
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4426
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Quote:
No....
all binoculars are good, some just better than others.
edj
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Joe Z
member
Reged: 05/24/08
Posts: 37
Loc: NJ, USA
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I'm glad many of you like your 7x50's. I just think they are universally underrated due to their exit pupil but may be made up for in their ease of use. A lot of Marine bino's are this size though.
-------------------- JZ
XT6
XT12i
AT-66ED
PST
Orion Vista 7x50, GO 20x80 Binos
Ultrascopic 30mm
Hyperion 17mm
Hyperion 8-24mm Zoom
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3362
Loc: NJ USA
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I have Celestron Oceana 7x50 WP-IF/RC Binoculars that are made for marine use and give a nice view but I prefer my 7x42 Zeiss FL for a wide 8.6° FOV and very bright views in low light.
-------------------- Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Obx
member
Reged: 08/01/08
Posts: 68
Loc: Beautiful OBX
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I commonly use 7x50s. I usually mount my 15x63 for dim objects. The perfect compromise is my 8x42. They all have their uses.
-------------------- Swift Sea Hawk 6x30
Westinghouse M3 6x30
Spencer Lens Mk 13 US Navy 7x50
Bausch & Lomb Mk 28 US Navy 7x50
National Instrument Mk 32 US Navy 7x50
Celestron Ultima 8x42
Orion Mini Giant 15x63
Meade 2045D S-C
Meteorites & Tektites
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Quote:
While doing some research into a new set of binos, I was suprised to learn my Orion Vista 7x50 Binos were not recommended. Not to due to their optics, which I feel are excellent by the way, but due to their magnification configuration. I've read the points on exit pupil and they being 7.1mm is a bit excessive for most. But the reason I chose them is that most people could hold them steady without a mount or bracing themselves.
I've tried 10x50's but the view through the 7x50's is much steadier for me. When reading the reviews and recommendations, it just seems this criteria is hardly mentioned for the 7x50 class, or even discussed much in the comparisons between the smaller binos. If the view is not steady, how good can it be? Aren't the 7x50's measurably better for most? Seeing is a subjective measurement of the sky's steadiness for viewing. Why not some sort of "seeing" measurement for binos? Wouldn't steadiness trump exit pupil?
Just some thoughts. Its not like I'm trying to justify a past purchase or anything like that. We don't do that stuff around here.
Joe,
I think what you might be referring to as a "seeing measurement for binos" is "hand held resolution".
For an explanation of how various configurations resolved detail both hand held and mounted see Edz's report (note: a 7x50 was not included in this study):
Binocular Resolution Handheld versus Mounted
As far as what 7x50s are good for depends on what you use them for during the daytime, and for stargazing, the size of your entrance pupil, sky darkness, and what you want to observe.
For daytime use, a 7x42 or 7x35 would work just as well, perhaps even better for users with smaller hands, because sunlight is going to shrink your entrance pupils too small to take advantage of the 7mm exit pupil of a 7x50. So why carry the extra weight and bulk? Or at least bulk, the Vista 7x50 is lightweight compared to most IF EP 7x50s.
If you use the 7x50s for boating (one of the chief uses for this configuration -- "marine binoculars"), the larger exit pupils will give you more "wriggle room" to avoid blackouts if your eyes wander off center as the boat rides through the water.
If you are a landlubber with shaky hands, the 7x could also help, though again, the magnification is more important than the objective size for daytime use.
For stargazing, the usefulness of a 7x50 depends on several factors. One of them is the relative darkness of your skies.
My skies are light polluted so even though my dark adapted pupils do not open to 7mm, the skies are washed out with a 7x50 or 8x50 binocular. With faint fuzzies, contrast is important, so I can actually see better detail with smaller exit pupil bins even though their objective size is less.
I'm not sure why this is. I'll let Edz or someone else chime in with an explanation if they agree.
In theory, light polluted skies should "stop down" my entrance pupils to about 4mm, so a 7x50 and a 7x35 should work the same (7x28), because my maximum entrance pupils under bright skies are around 4mm.
But in actual use, the 7x35 bin gives me better contrast whereas the sky looks washed out in the 7x50.
Even if I can max out my entrance pupils to 5mm, the 7x50 would operate at the same configuration for my eyes as the 7x35.
In any case, I find a 7x50 gives me significantly less contrast under my suburban skies so this makes them less desirable than a 7x35, and since I use bins for both stargazing and birdwatching, I also prefer the closer focus and wider FOV of a 7x35 binocular.
I find that 7x doesn't show me enough detail for stargazing except for sweeping the Milky Way and looking at open clusters, and for that kind of observing, I prefer the wider FOV, larger apparent FOV, and higher magnification that my 8.5x44 Swift Audubon provides.
So for me, at least, the extra steadiness and larger objective that a 7x50 offers for stargazing is outweighed by the greater detail, wider field of view, and better contrast I get from a good quality 8x42 binocular, or even my 8x32 SE.
In fact, during one my club's public outreach events, I compared a fellow club member's Fuji 7x50 to my Vista 8x42. I preferred the views though the Vista for stargazing under our light polluted skies even though the Fuji is legendary for stargazing and the Vista's FOV was slightly narrower (6.5*). So did he, and he promptly sold his Fujis and bought my Vistas.
YMMV.
-------------------- Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10155
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Rather than spend the time typing all the main points out again , I will post this link to one of my reviews on Cloudy Nights of a 7 x 50 .
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1633
Kenny
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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