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EdZModerator
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #2674098 - 10/01/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

My skies are light polluted so even though my dark adapted eyes do not open to 7mm, the skies are washed out with a 7x50 or 8x50 binocular. With faint fuzzies, contrast is important, so I can actually see better detail with smaller exit pupil bins even though their objective size is less.

I'm not sure why this is. I'll let Edz or someone else chime in with an explanation if they agree.

In theory, light polluted skies should "stop down" my entrance pupils to about 4mm, so a 7x50 and a 7x35 should work the same (7x28), because my maximum entrance pupils under bright skies are around 4mm.






My method to measure my eye pupils is to stand in front of the bathroom mirror in subdued morning daylight, but with the blinds closed. The room is quite dim, but many many times brighter than even the brightest light polluted sky. In this dim morning room light, I can measure my eye puils at 6mm.

I doubt even the most extreme brightest light polluted skies are brighter than my morning light test for my eye pupils. Therefore I doubt the most extreme brightest light polluted skies are stopping down your eye pupils.

FWIW, in bright daylight, when standing on my porch out of direct light, I can measure my pupils at 3-4mm. It is highly unlikely that even a bright moonlit sky is brighter than daylight on my porch, so I doubt even moonlight light pollution would stop eye pupils down to 4mm, unless perhaps you were looking thru an eyepiece pointed directly at the moon.

edz

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Mary
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: KennyJ]
      #2674204 - 10/01/08 01:41 PM

I recently purchased a pair of Vixen 7x50 Forestas and I just can't put these down! I can easily see M27, M15, M2, M10, M12, M22, M8, etc, etc. Don't let anyone tell you that a 7x50 is not very good. Yes, more magnification will pick up, but man o man, it is really surprising what a good pair of 7x50 will do!

Mary


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #2674250 - 10/01/08 02:06 PM

Quote:


My skies are light polluted so even though my dark adapted pupils do not open to 7mm, the skies are washed out with a 7x50 or 8x50 binocular. With faint fuzzies, contrast is important, so I can actually see better detail with smaller exit pupil bins even though their objective size is less.




A number of people have reported this, but my experience is just the opposite. I've played around with masking down binoculars whose exit pupils are bigger than my pupils, and in almost every case, I see most when the exit pupil is equal to or greater than my eye's pupil.

The only possible exception is when resolving fine detail in a very bright object like Jupiter. The glare at a 5-mm exit pupil obscures stuff that I can see at a 2-mm or 3-mm exit pupil. Another way of saying that is that the optical quality of my eye's lenses isn't the greatest, and masking them down improves their resolution just as it does for cheap camera lenses.

But for faint fuzzies, where resolution is a non-issue, bigger exit pupils are always better, as long as the magnification stays the same.

Quote:


In theory, light polluted skies should "stop down" my entrance pupils to about 4mm




I'm sceptical of this theory. Insofar as I can measure them (hard to do with much accuracy), my pupils open to the max even in twilight conditions. (And from an evolutionary point of view, why shouldn't they?) As far as I can tell, they're every bit as wide open in urban skyglow as under pristine skies.

Obviously, I'm not as well dark-adapted in the presence of urban skyglow. But pupil size is a very minor factor in dark adaptation.

Quote:

In any case, I find a 7x50 gives me significantly less contrast under my suburban skies so this makes them less desirable than a 7x35 ...




Two possible explanations are that the different binos have different optical quality and that you're being swayed by your expectations.

It would be instructive to mask your 7x50s down to 7x35. It's very easily done with a piece of cardboard.

--------------------
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DJB
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? [Re: KennyJ]
      #2675619 - 10/02/08 06:59 AM

Hi all,

I currently use my 7x50s. Kenny's review is worth taking in. And he also relates why a larger EP is important for his viewing pleasure, because of the location of his eyes vs. the larger EP. This is in an older post--search.

Of course the 7x50s were the standard defacto binocular during WWII, for a good reason (on ships at night). They still have their merits today. I wouldn't be without one, two, or three. Just my thoughts.

Best regards,
Dave.


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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: DJB]
      #2675637 - 10/02/08 07:30 AM

Historically, the military selected 7x35 and 7x50 bins as standard issue as these were determined by their studies to be the best compromise for handheld use day and night. Obviously, they were concerned with somthing other than their suitablility for astro observing.

--------------------
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: Luigi]
      #2676118 - 10/02/08 12:31 PM

7x50s were also the standard recommended astro binocular when I got started in the mid 90s;
but times and recommendations change.

edj

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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brocknroller
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: EdZ]
      #2676124 - 10/02/08 12:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My skies are light polluted so even though my dark adapted eyes do not open to 7mm, the skies are washed out with a 7x50 or 8x50 binocular. With faint fuzzies, contrast is important, so I can actually see better detail with smaller exit pupil bins even though their objective size is less.

I'm not sure why this is. I'll let Edz or someone else chime in with an explanation if they agree.

In theory, light polluted skies should "stop down" my entrance pupils to about 4mm, so a 7x50 and a 7x35 should work the same (7x28), because my maximum entrance pupils under bright skies are around 4mm.






My method to measure my eye pupils is to stand in front of the bathroom mirror in subdued morning daylight, but with the blinds closed. The room is quite dim, but many many times brighter than even the brightest light polluted sky. In this dim morning room light, I can measure my eye puils at 6mm.

I doubt even the most extreme brightest light polluted skies are brighter than my morning light test for my eye pupils. Therefore I doubt the most extreme brightest light polluted skies are stopping down your eye pupils.

FWIW, in bright daylight, when standing on my porch out of direct light, I can measure my pupils at 3-4mm. It is highly unlikely that even a bright moonlit sky is brighter than daylight on my porch, so I doubt even moonlight light pollution would stop eye pupils down to 4mm, unless perhaps you were looking thru an eyepiece pointed directly at the moon.

edz




I need to wear reading glasses to see that close in a mirror, and have a hard time getting a ruler or tape measurer under my glasses, but I'll give it another try. The last time I had my eye doctor measure my dark adapted pupils, he said they were around 5.5mm, but that was about five years ago.

Outside my house, there is ambient light from nearby street lights and porch lights, though I try to position myself to avoid them. There's also the occasional flash of car headlights, though I close my eyes as soon as I see them.

However, even if my pupils do open fully to 5mm when I'm standing in the shadows, why is it that a 7x50 will show poor contrast on the night sky compared to a comparable quality 7x35, when due to my 5mm entrance pupils, they are both operating as 7x35s?

--------------------
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #2676419 - 10/02/08 02:37 PM

Brock,
That is a pretty good riddle. I assume that by "poor contrast on the night sky", you mean the sky looks bright. I know what you mean, the darker sky is prettier. This way of looking at it is fairly common, but it's unfortunate that this expression puts down a binocular for nothing worse than superior light transmission. Anyhow, I can think of two not too far-fetched explanations for what you are seeing.

One, already suggested, is that the 7x50 is obviously more transmissive than the 7x35. Center field, this would have to be due to better coatings, possibly clearer glass. Near the edges of the view, it could be vignetting from undersized or BAK-7 (not likely) prisms. Henry Link has remarked that he can see a 5% difference in brightness pretty easily. That much difference between two "good porro" binoculars is conceivable.

The other explanation is that your eyes are still about 5.5mm as your doctor measured a while back. This would result in a 20% brighter view in the 7x50.

Stopping down the 50 to 35mm would help solve it.
Ron


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EdZModerator
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: ronharper]
      #2676549 - 10/02/08 03:48 PM

Quote:

and have a hard time getting a ruler or tape measurer under my glasses,




I couldn't hold under my eye or read a ruler or scale in the mirror either.

What I've done is photocopied the star dot scale out of a page from my SkyAtlas 2000, the dots that show what size stars on the charts represent what magnitude. Then I sliced right thru the middle of the string of star dots. That leaves me with a strip of paper with about 10 sizes of black half circles. I slide that along my eye until one matches perfectly with my pupil. Then I sit down and measure that. This sliding scale is very easy to see. In fact, it's what my eye doctor used to measure my pupils, a scale with half circles that he slide along my pupil until one matched.

edz

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EdZModerator
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #2676572 - 10/02/08 03:58 PM

Quote:

However, even if my pupils do open fully to 5mm when I'm standing in the shadows, why is it that a 7x50 will show poor contrast on the night sky compared to a comparable quality 7x35, when due to my 5mm entrance pupils, they are both operating as 7x35s?





Required reading (from our Best Of threads) that helps answer some of the questions you need to answer for yourself.


BEST OF LINKS
Dark Adaptation, Eye Pupils, Lights

Affect of Eye Pupil on Binocular Aperture


SPECIFIC ARTICLES
Affect of Eye Pupil on Binocular Aperture by EdZ August 2004

And this article a thecnical paper by Chris Lord, that plots reduction in percentage illumination as affected by eye pupil smaller than exit pupil and also plots reduction in percentage illumination as affected by eye pupil larger than exit pupil. It points out that the ONLY time the eye gets 100% illumination from the eye lens is when the eye pupil is exactly the same size as the exit pupil. For all other conditions illumination is less than 100%.

Go down to about page 50.
Evolution of the Astronomical Eyepiece by C.J.R. Lord F.R.A.S.


edz

Edited by EdZ (10/02/08 04:06 PM)


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desertrefugee
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: edwincjones]
      #2677006 - 10/02/08 07:42 PM

Quote:

7x50s were also the standard recommended astro binocular when I got started in the mid 90s;
but times and recommendations change.




But, why would this change?

Physics are constant. Optics have, for the most part, been constant. The environment is essentially the same. Why would our "recommended" observing toolset change?

I would think that if 7x50s (or whatever) were recommended a decade or so ago, the same basis for that recommendation would still stand.

--------------------
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #2677028 - 10/02/08 08:02 PM

Quote:



But, why would this change?

Why would our "recommended" observing toolset change?






Does anybody know WHEN the giant astronomy binoculars boom kicked into high gear?

When did Japan start producing the 70mm & 80mm binos?

How long ago did China jump on the bandwagon?

I've only been at this since March of 05.

According to Nikon History they had the 10x70mm in 1990 and the 18x70mm in 1997.

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
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Edited by hallelujah (10/02/08 08:11 PM)


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EdZModerator
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #2677624 - 10/03/08 06:34 AM

Quote:

Optics have, for the most part, been constant.




I would say that the broad public general understanding of optics has not remained constant.

As just one example, earlier this decade I began studies of Limiting Magnitude using binoculars. Although it had been written about twenty years ago, the common thought by the general public seemed to be that LM was controlled by aperture, where it was sometimes stated, if you want to see deeper in LM, get a larger aperture. Of course, many now understand, and there is substantial material to prove, that is not entirely the case. Look at any general astronomy guide, you will see that limiting magnitude is listed as increasing with aperture. True, it does, but that doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story and it doesn't provide info usable for binoculars. We know now that the brightest exit pupil is not always best to see deepest, and we know that magnification has a significantly stronger influence than aperture on how deep one can see in binoculars.

On another note, the consideration of exit pupil size vs eye pupil has been discussed previously. For many people that is a major factor that would lead to other sizes as a better choice.

These are two examples of criteria affecting choice that were seldom discussed, perhaps due to a lack of understanding, in recommendations given 15-20 years ago.

7x50s are very nice, but it is not a size binocular I would recommend to anyone as a first binocular.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: hallelujah]
      #2677666 - 10/03/08 07:47 AM

Quote:


Does anybody know WHEN the giant astronomy binoculars boom kicked into high gear?




Giant binoculars are both cheaper and better now than they used to be. Also, 100-mm binoculars -- which used to be genuinely exotic -- are now mainstream.

But 70-mm and 80-mm binos (if you call those giants) have been pretty popular longer than I've been alive. I bought a pair of 20x70s sometime in the 1960's from Edmund Scientific, which was at that point the main supplier for amateur astronomers. As I remember, their optical quality was pretty poor. Unfortunately, I've mislaid them, so I can't verify that.

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8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
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Erik D
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: hallelujah]
      #2677742 - 10/03/08 09:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:



But, why would this change?

Why would our "recommended" observing toolset change?






Does anybody know WHEN the giant astronomy binoculars boom kicked into high gear?

When did Japan start producing the 70mm & 80mm binos?

How long ago did China jump on the bandwagon?

I've only been at this since March of 05.






I recall lusting after 11X80, 20X80 binos in the late 1970s. University Optics, Parks and Unitron and others had ads Sky and Tel. By the early 1980s Celestron, Meade and Swift were also importing from Japan. 11X80s were probably more popular back then. Most astro viewer believed 7mm exit pupil was more desirable.

IIRC Sales lit received from Astronomics in the mid 1980s was the first I read about 20X80s with 4mm exit pupil may be more suited than 11X80s for backyards with light pollution. Darker sky, better contrast etc...

I believe 14X100s and 25X100s were stocked by Orion in the 1990s. They were considered "Super" or "Ultra" Giant binos back then. Owning one made you the center of attention at dark sky sites. The Vixen 125s, Miyauci 141 and Fujinon 150mm were out of reach for most of us. Something we see in astro magazines only.

I didn't do much viewing for most of the 1990s. Got back to astronomy in the fall of 2001. Finally purchased my first 20X80 from Orion in Oct 2001. A night under the stars and I was hooked! By Xmas of I was ready to move up to 25X100mm binos.

Very few 100mm were available back then. Orion listed one for $1149. Sky and Tel conducted a test report of the Chinese Military 25/40X100mm and ProOptic 25X100mm in June of 2000. ProOptic is Adorama Camera's house brand. Their 25X100mm was $900. I tried to place an an order with them but had to wait three month, finally received mine in March of 2002. I think my ProOptics 25X100 may have been the last Japanese 25X100 imported. Adorama dropped them from their ads after I purchase mine. The holiday 2001 Orion catalog was the last one listing the Japanese 25X100mm.

Imagine my surprise when I went to NEAF 2002 a few month later and saw Burgess Optical showing a huge 25X100 prototype from China. Intro price was $395...less than 1/2 of what I paid. Apogee also displayed a 25X100 at NEAF 2002. The rest is history...

I believe Kevin B at Oberwerk was THE major factor for the popularity of Chinese Giant binos in the USA. His Oberwerk 15X70 for $149 in the early 2000s was ground breaking. Made 70mm binos affordable for every one. The Orion 15X70 Little Giant sold for $279 back then. Oberwerk's first 20X80(Beige paint) was about ~ 7lb IIRC. Their 22X100 vs. Celestron Skymaster 25X100 was reviewed by EdZ back in 2004 on CN:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php/Cat/1,2,3,4,5,8,9,10/Number/233170/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

By that time you could purchase 100mm binos from nearly a dozen importers.


Erik D


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EdZModerator
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: EdZ]
      #2677764 - 10/03/08 09:27 AM

Quote:

However, even if my pupils do open fully to 5mm when I'm standing in the shadows, why is it that a 7x50 will show poor contrast on the night sky compared to a comparable quality 7x35, when due to my 5mm entrance pupils, they are both operating as 7x35s?




Considering that a 7x50 used by a 5mm eye pupil will use only the central 70% of the objective lens, and that the center of the lens is more likely to provide a higher percent illumination of the exit pupil, this probaly means that what you see has nothing to do with limiting eye pupil and is probably related to transmission and illumination, even though you may think the two samples are near equally rated.

For example, I've seen three very good 7x50s which all had good to excellent properties, but they have dramatically different percent area of full illumination and also dramatically different total tansmission. Lux values were appoximately 900, 1000 and 1100, a range of 20% from worst to best. Across a variety of 7x50s, some values for percent central area of 100% illumination range from 5%, 10% to 15% and 30%, easily a difference of 10 times the area of pupil that has 100% illumination.

Aspects of performance such as these may easily explain the dfferences you see.

edz

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bsim
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: edwincjones]
      #2678212 - 10/03/08 01:59 PM

Quote:

7x50s were also the standard recommended astro binocular when I got started in the mid 90s;
but times and recommendations change.

edj




It seems the recommendation these days is a 10x50 bino.

My understanding is that it was primarily two reasons to recommend a 5mm pupil size: aging astronomers who can't dilate to 7mm and heavy light pollution which prevents full dilation for observers who can hit 7mm.

--------------------


Teeter's 10" F/6 Truss Dob / Sky Commander DSC / Round Table Platform
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Canon 10x30 IS, Constellation View 2.3x40 Bino
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: EdZ]
      #2678243 - 10/03/08 02:15 PM

Several weeks ago, I realized that I needed a good 7x50 binocular to make my own opinion about this question. I choose the 7x50 Kunming Series 8. The brand is APM, but it's the same bino as the WO 7x50 ED, the Telescope Service 7x50, etc... I can confirm that it's an excellent binocular, with very good coatings. (It's really strange that the same Chinese manufacturer can produce the 22x85 that I tried, and that was a pure horror in comparison ! But that's not the subject).

Before relating my findings, I must add that I have measured my exit pupil between 6 and 6.5 mm, I generally use my binoculars on a tripod, and I can easily move at a dark site where the SQM reaches 21.55.

The first surprise was the exceptional sharpness of this binocular. I compared on the same stars the APM 7x50 to the Nikon SE 12x50, which gives anything but soft images, and discovered that the 7x50 provided a slightly better pinpoint aspect of stars. This proves to me that the Nikon 12x50 could be better if its optical aberration were reduced, or put in another way, that the low magnification of 7x50 binoculars is forgiving for common optical deficiencies of binoculars.

The second surprise was the difficulty in eye placement. For me this binocular is rather uncomfortable, whether I use it for daytime or for astronomy. I discovered that the eye relief was too long for me. I measured the usable eye relief, with folded down eyecups, and found 20 mm. But even if I manage to put my eyes at the right distance from the eyepieces, I still find lateral positioning of the eye to be somewhat critical for astronomy. I prefer in this respect small exit pupils, no larger than 4 mm, because the eye placement appears intuitive in this case.

About performance, the difference between the 7x50 and the 12x50 is really huge. While the 12x50 shows an interesting variety of aspects among deep sky objects, the 7x50 desperately shows many of them as fuzzy spots. Of course, this is not a discovery. But moving at a dark site changes nothing, contrary to my expectations. The 12x50 still outperforms the 7x50 by a large margin, on any kind of object. I have tried difficult targets, like the Helix nebula, the Pleiades nebula, the Veil nebula, the structures of the Milky Way, dark clouds, and every time the 12x50 was better. For example, some parts of the Milky Way appear rather uniform in the 7x50, but I can see a lot of complex structures in the 12x50. Some dark clouds are obvious in the 12x50, and almost invisible in the 7x50 !

Then, I made cardboard rings to stop down the 7x50 to a 7x28 binocular. And guess what ? I think I prefer the 7x28 configuration ! The faint dark clouds and subtle brightness variations of the Milky Way become more visible for me with a 4 mm exit pupil. When I remove the cardboard stops, the image is noticeably brighter, but appears washed out. A 7x35 configuration gives me a pleasing image too…
This result defies logic, and I would not have believed it without my experiment. I have no explanation for it.

Jean-Charles


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Mark9473
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: JCB]
      #2678385 - 10/03/08 03:09 PM

Quote:

Several weeks ago, I realized that I needed a good 7x50 binocular to make my own opinion about this question.
I have measured my exit pupil between 6 and 6.5 mm



Then it surprises me a bit that you didn't go for 7x42s, or better still 8x50.

Quote:

I compared on the same stars the APM 7x50 to the Nikon SE 12x50, which gives anything but soft images, and discovered that the 7x50 provided a slightly better pinpoint aspect of stars. This proves to me that the Nikon 12x50 could be better if its optical aberration were reduced



More than anything, to me this proves that you have very well corrected eye lenses!

Quote:

About performance, the difference between the 7x50 and the 12x50 is really huge. While the 12x50 shows an interesting variety of aspects among deep sky objects, the 7x50 desperately shows many of them as fuzzy spots. Of course, this is not a discovery. But moving at a dark site changes nothing, contrary to my expectations. The 12x50 still outperforms the 7x50 by a large margin, on any kind of object. I have tried difficult targets, like the Helix nebula, the Pleiades nebula, the Veil nebula, the structures of the Milky Way, dark clouds, and every time the 12x50 was better. For example, some parts of the Milky Way appear rather uniform in the 7x50, but I can see a lot of complex structures in the 12x50. Some dark clouds are obvious in the 12x50, and almost invisible in the 7x50 !



I'm not too surprised at your finding, to be honest. First of all, with 6-6.5 mm eye pupils you're wasting a bit of the 7x50's brightness. More importantly, it is well known that performance on almost any object depends more on magnification than aperture.

The key realization about the 7x50 debate for me is the following:
- virtually any object looks better at higher magnification (within reasonable limits); and
- for any given magnification, the brighter image provided by a larger exit pupil will look better (with a lower limit on sky quality).

Quote:

Then, I made cardboard rings to stop down the 7x50 to a 7x28 binocular. And guess what ? I think I prefer the 7x28 configuration ! The faint dark clouds and subtle brightness variations of the Milky Way become more visible for me with a 4 mm exit pupil. When I remove the cardboard stops, the image is noticeably brighter, but appears washed out. A 7x35 configuration gives me a pleasing image too…
This result defies logic, and I would not have believed it without my experiment. I have no explanation for it.



It certainly contradicts my own experience with 7x50 compared to 8x42. The brighter image in the 7x50 always looks better to me, except in really poor skies (below LM 3 or so). Only when wanting to look at a particular target that benefits from magnification, is 8x better than 7x.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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Mark9473
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Re: Are 7x50's any good at anything? new [Re: EdZ]
      #2678388 - 10/03/08 03:12 PM

Quote:

the common thought by the general public seemed to be that LM was controlled by aperture, where it was sometimes stated, if you want to see deeper in LM, get a larger aperture.



I think it would be accurate to say that the gegeral public has no clue that you can look at the stars with binoculars, let alone that there is a concept such as LM.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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