Teal'c
Indeed
Reged: 08/02/05
Posts: 3484
Loc: TN
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It seems that these Ethos eyepieces are getting excellent reviews on planetary performance, as well as widefield. If this is in fact an accurate assessment, why would one spend close to or more on a narrow field planetary eyepiece, such as AP, Zeiss, Pentax or TMB? I realize that some people like a narrower fov for critical detail observing, but if an eyepiece performs well in both categories, wouldn't it make sense to seriously consider it?
The reason for this post, is that I came close to bidding on an 8mm AP SPL on AM, but started thinking about the multi use of the 8mm Ethos. Rarity, was not factored in.
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Etch-O-Sketch and an eraser. Although....the eraser dosn't work 
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Sachem
member
Reged: 08/22/08
Posts: 65
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Personal preference.
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4311
Loc: Inner Solar System
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If you're a die-hard planetary observer, I don't think you'll get the performance you want from an Ethos. All eyepieces are compromises in one area or another, and the best planetary EPs trade off FOV and edge correction for razor-sharp on-axis performance.
But if you're not so rabid about your planetary observing, but just want a nice view of everything, it's probably a good idea.
(IMO).
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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Mr. Mike
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 858
Loc: Churchville, NY
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Quote:
If you're a die-hard planetary observer, I don't think you'll get the performance you want from an Ethos. All eyepieces are compromises in one area or another, and the best planetary EPs trade off FOV and edge correction for razor-sharp on-axis performance.
But if you're not so rabid about your planetary observing, but just want a nice view of everything, it's probably a good idea.
(IMO).
Well said... the Ethos cannot get out of the fact that theres a bunch of glass in there and this alone means it must take a hit on planetary performance at some level. Still, its prolly REALLY good though!
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Stellarvue NG 80mm ED
Meade 7x50 Binos
Pentax XW 5mm
Meade 5K UWA 8.8mm
Vixen LVW 13mm
Vixen LVW 22mm
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2244
Loc: Vienna, VA
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For sure....both EPs will perform, as you characterized, "well." I would hazzard that if you are in a suburban location that probably during 80% of the evenings you will not be able to tell any difference in on-axis optical performance as the atmosphere will whisp away the finer details on planetary. However, on those other evenings, IME it's pretty much an issue of scatter and baffling. If we make the assumption that in both the Ethos and SPL baffling is maximized, then all we have left is the scatter induced by the lens surfaces. Again, assuming both EPs are polished to the same fine level, the SPL has many many less elements so will win out.
Like Rick said, really depends on how fanatical you are with Planetary. IMO you should fill out your wide field collection first as it will get more use on a larger variety of targets. Then supplement that with a very few specialized short FL planetary EPs like the SPLs...or ZAOs...or Pentax SMC Orthos, or the like.
FWIW, there's never been an time for me when the sky has been great that a more complex optical designed EP beat out a fewer elements EP on planetary. But similar to what you said, for me I use my wider field 3x more often than my min-glass planetary. I'd also be less "fulfilled" in my observing though if I did not have both.
-Bill
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250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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Keith Howlett
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 710
Loc: Northumberland, UK
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Hi Kurt,
I think it's just down to the reduced number of air-glass surfaces in most planetary eyepieces offering slightly better contrast than widefields.
Although I wouldn't feel especially upset if I did all of my planetary observing through a set of Ethos eyepieces (my bank manager may differ) I can see slightly more subtle detail through my TMB Supermonocentrics.
I did pop my 13mm Ethos into my solar H-alpha setup earlier in the summer and the view of a tangerine hanging in a wide expanse of space was memorable.
Cheers,
Keith
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14" f10 RCOS / AP1200
AP 105 Traveler / AP400 QMD
Coronado SM90 Filter
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 1739
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I just had my eyes tested.. With correction, they were 20/10.
Now, I actually don't THINK my eyesight is that much better than most peoples eyesight.. I think I am a better OBSERVER though,and when I looked at the test chart, I "Pushed" myself to resolve the bottom line.. Got all characters right too...
What has this got to do with eyepeices???
I won't dispute that these eyepieces might not be able to beat a high quality specialized planetary eyepiece, but I am amazed at how close the widefieds can come these days.
The give up NOTHING in sharpness. I have tested 5MM T6 against a variety of other eyepiecs and eyepiece/barlow combinations, and my own experience using indoor testing and high quality test charts, followed up with under the sky planetary testing is that the performance is so close that it is often undetectable in detail resolution.
One of the ONLY clues that often can be observerd is that around Jupiter or Saturn, a TINY amount of additional scatter is often seen. And while I know that this somehow affects the contrast on the planet, Using a 5mm T6 compared to a few other good quality "Planetary" eyepiecs or eyepieces with barlows, I can't say that I saw any "Absolute" detail in the others that was not visible in the 5mm T6.
So, whatever differences exist, I believe that with modern coating technology, they are extremly small.
I was so impressed with the 5mm T6 that this eyepiece IS my "High power" eyepiece in my 6" refractor. It has better eye releif than similar Orthos, MUCH better eye relief than Plossls, and has no more glass than a 10.5mm Plossl with a Barlow... In many many comparisons, I never felt that any of the other eyepieces or eyepice/barlow combinations beat it.
It is a BIT too much power for my 6" scope though, and I only wish that they made a 6mm T5 Nagler... LOL.
But.. This is a VERY VERY high quality Televue eyepiece. I am sure that it is made to quite exacting minimum standards.
I am sure the Ethos is as well.
I believe that for most observers today, the difference is close enough to be ignored. A Pentax or Televue wide-field can come ohhhhh so very close to the best planetary eyepieces that it is hard to believe.
If someone is saying that the Ethos makes a good planetery eyepiece, I would be in the ranks of "Believer".
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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KWB
Postmaster
Reged: 09/30/06
Posts: 7635
Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.1646Meters
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For someone chasing objects with an undriven scope,I'll take all the TFOV a topnotch widefield design eyepiece can give. I echo the sentiment that these modern ultrawide and I guess what you could now call now Ethos wide eyepieces do a terrific job for discerning fine detail. Make mine versatility over absolute specialisation any time. A Nagler can do a lot of things pretty well,as will a Pentax XW and they'll get's my vote over what I believe to be the one trick pony aspect of an eyepiece like a Monocentric. To each their own. I too believe any choice is a compromise to one degree,another or even more so I'll take the one that makes the least overall.
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Kenny
"When dealing with a mystery,choose the most unlikely of the likely possibilities"-Sherlock Holmes
Edited by KWB (10/02/08 05:46 PM)
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Mike Harvey
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 589
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Here's my opinion of the Ethos as planetary eyepieces:
Since the arrival of the Ethos line, I've sold ALL of my "dedicated planetary" eyepieces and replaced them with the entire Ethos line!
This list of the discarded includes vintage Zeiss Abbe Orthos, Brandons, Pentax SMC's (.965) and Clave' Plossls...some of which I had kept for over 30 years!
The Ethos' overall performance is simply unmatched.
If they only had a 50 degree fov, they would STILL match or outperform all of the classic eyepieces listed above.
That they can do this while delivering a 100 degree field is simply mind-boggling.
I suspect Uncle Al is reverse-engineering secret alien technology that was found in the wreckage of the Roswell
"flying saucer"!!!
Mike Harvey
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Teal'c
Indeed
Reged: 08/02/05
Posts: 3484
Loc: TN
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Thanks Mike,
"I suspect Uncle Al is reverse-engineering secret alien technology that was found in the wreckage of the Roswell
"flying saucer"!!!"
Al, IS the alien that was flying that saucer. He escaped, and figured that since he couldn't get back to his home-world...he'd use his shape-shifting abilities and knowledge to make a comfortable life for he and his offspring. I've got a pair of sunglasses (also of alien technology) that can see them in their true form.
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Etch-O-Sketch and an eraser. Although....the eraser dosn't work
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JimP
sage
Reged: 04/22/03
Posts: 346
Loc: South Carolina
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I have TMB Supermonocentrics, Zeiss Abbe orthos (I and II), Brandons and I must say I have been Very impressed with the views through my 8mm Ethos. In fact I am going to get the 6mm just for this reason. 6mm gives me about as high a magnification as I ever want with good seeing on my scopes. Superb seeing with a 6mm Ethos, 100 degree FOV on the Moon...now that should be sweet! I have no intention of selling my TMBs etc., as they are superb, come in many more focal lengths and work best for me in my binoviewer. But, I could not fault anyone for using an Ethos as a planetary eyepiece.
JimP
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andydj5xp
sage
Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 384
Loc: 52.269 N/10.571 E
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Quote:
....But, I could not fault anyone for using an Ethos as a planetary eyepiece.
This statement from a very experienced observer should IMO end the myth of "less glass is better for planetary use" which I have not been believing for quite some time now. Modern glasses and modern coatings and quality polishing result in very competitive multi-element eyepieces.
My barlowed Leica zoom (total of 10 lenses) could very well compete with highly regarded orthos (4 lenses) for definition and contrast and - most important for me - the lack of ghosting and stray light.
Andreas
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TEC140 (#216)
Leica 22...7.3mm zoom, barlowed 1.75x (12.6...4.2mm)
Zeiss AbbeII set with Barlow 2x
WO UWAN16, also barlowed 1.78x (9mm)
WO UWAN28
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BillP
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 2244
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Teal'c,
As you can see from the posts here, looks like the answer is going to have to be you'll only know for sure when you look and see. As always on this question, there are several correct answers. Basic issue is that the *entire* optical chain is very complex and for some the extra glass clearly makes no perceived difference, and for others it clearly does make a perceived difference. So basically more than one correct answer as the variables are different for everyone's personal optical chain and no way of telling if the optical variables which are impacted from less glass will be hypersensitive to where the outcome will be obviously affected. Only your eyes+scope+location will reveal the answer for you 
-Bill
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250mm f/4.7 Orion XT10i Dobsonian
102mm f/8.0 Tak TSA Super-APO
66mm f/5.9 WO ZenithStar SD APO
40mm f/10 Coronado P.S.T.
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Edwin Quiroga
sage
Reged: 01/31/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Miranda, Venezuela
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Has anyone tried the combo Ethos 13+Powermate 5x? I`m very tempted about trying it in my TV85 (230x).
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1812
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Yes, I've tried that and I have to say it works remarkably well - the Ethos definitely works extremely well with Barlows, although the sight of all that stuff sticking out at right-angles from the scope does look a little weird!! I tried this in my TMB92SS and NP-127 scopes (both short FL refractors with exquisite optics).
The 13mm Ethos and 5x powermate has an effective FL of 2.6mm, so I compared this with my 82° 2.5mT6 Nagler and 2-4 Nagler zoom on the moon. I preferred the T6 Nagler mainly because of ergonomics - but after spending some ten minutes swapping them back and forth, I have to say that while the Nagler definitely delivered a slightly (and the emphasis is on the word slightly) brighter and contrastier view, the difference may well have been more in my mind than in reality - I would really like to do a double-blind test here to be sure - sometimes just knowing what one is doing is enough to influence me one way or the other, but the physical size difference would make it difficult to hide the difference (not to mention the obvious difference in FOV). The Nagler zoom is a fine EP, but the smaller FOV is a lot more noticeable when one has a 100° EP next to it!
There is no question but that the Ethos functions very nicely in Powermates and Barlows. I think if you only occasionly go up to that magnification, it's a fine solution, but if you spend a lot of time observing at that magnification, you might find a dedicated EP a more satisfying solution - probably more for ergonomics than optics....
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turtle86
sage
Reged: 10/09/06
Posts: 301
Loc: Between Umatilla and Astatula
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I didn't buy the Ethos necessarily thinking I'd also be getting a great planetary EP, but I was very pleasantly surprised in that regard. I recently had some of my best views of Jupiter ever through my 8mm Ethos. All I can say is seeing is believing. I would certainly recommend looking through one at a star party if you have the opportunity.
Quote:
It seems that these Ethos eyepieces are getting excellent reviews on planetary performance, as well as widefield. If this is in fact an accurate assessment, why would one spend close to or more on a narrow field planetary eyepiece, such as AP, Zeiss, Pentax or TMB? I realize that some people like a narrower fov for critical detail observing, but if an eyepiece performs well in both categories, wouldn't it make sense to seriously consider it?
The reason for this post, is that I came close to bidding on an 8mm AP SPL on AM, but started thinking about the multi use of the 8mm Ethos. Rarity, was not factored in.
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Rob
18" Starmaster
8" LX200
Too many Naglers
Off-topic distractions:
Red Sox, modern lit, golf, tennis, Pearl Jam, Monty Python, chess, fine beer (Chimay!) and cheap wine
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
I would really like to do a double-blind test here to be sure - sometimes just knowing what one is doing is enough to influence me one way or the other, but the physical size difference would make it difficult to hide the difference (not to mention the obvious difference in FOV).
I was able to accomplish this by asking my girlfriend to compare the 13 Ethos against the 12 Nagler. She goes out observing with me but sticks almost entirely to binoculars, and doesn't know the difference between an Ethos and a Kellner. While we only hit DSO's, she did very quickly see a difference in contrast and clarity. The funny thing was, she did not even mention field of view!
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Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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Edwin Quiroga
sage
Reged: 01/31/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Miranda, Venezuela
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Thanks a lot, CESDewar, for your fine response.
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Scott Ayer
member
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 87
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I think the 13Ethos does a great job for planetary work in my dob but (I know this is personal preference...), I think the best eyepiece I have personally used for planetary work is the Takashi LE's. ( I havnt tried the TMB or AP eyepieces). In my refractors, the TAK seems to have the BEST contrast.
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15 " Obsession
20" OBSESSION
8" meade lightbridge
C80ED
TV101 on a Losmandy GM8/GIBRALTAR MOUNT
120 Eon APO
Lunts 60mm Ha (on pre-order)
Coronado PST
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Mr. Mike
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 858
Loc: Churchville, NY
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Quote:
I think the 13Ethos does a great job for planetary work in my dob but (I know this is personal preference...), I think the best eyepiece I have personally used for planetary work is the Takashi LE's. ( I havnt tried the TMB or AP eyepieces). In my refractors, the TAK seems to have the BEST contrast.
I agree on the TAK LEs... I should NOT have sold mine! 
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Stellarvue NG 80mm ED
Meade 7x50 Binos
Pentax XW 5mm
Meade 5K UWA 8.8mm
Vixen LVW 13mm
Vixen LVW 22mm
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