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jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1343
Loc: Pasadena, CA
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I think I just got the Higg-cups... pardon me while I drink some water. 
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Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan
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HiggsBoson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 809
Loc: Kal-li-fornia
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Michael
ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
ATM: 12.5" F/4.5 Real Soon Now...
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Sorry Michael,
You can't post until the LHC proves you exist.
Pesse (  ) Mist 
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Qkslvr
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/23/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: NE Ohio, US
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Michael's been virtualized......
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Mike
N8/CG-5/40D
Coming sometime/Maybe FrankenRebel
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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This article has been helpful for me in understanding the H-B.
http://www.jlab.org/~cecire/higgs.html
Here's another:
http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm
Quote:
There is, however, one very clever and very elegant solution to this problem, a solution first proposed by Peter Higgs. He proposed that the whole of space is permeated by a field, similar in some ways to the electromagnetic field. As particles move through space they travel through this field, and if they interact with it they acquire what appears to be mass. This is similar to the action of viscous forces felt by particles moving through any thick liquid. the larger the interaction of the particles with the field, the more mass they appear to have. Thus the existence of this field is essential in Higg's hypothesis for the production of the mass of particles.
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
There is, however, one very clever and very elegant solution to this problem, a solution first proposed by Peter Higgs. He proposed that the whole of space is permeated by a field, similar in some ways to the electromagnetic field. As particles move through space they travel through this field, and if they interact with it they acquire what appears to be mass. This is similar to the action of viscous forces felt by particles moving through any thick liquid. the larger the interaction of the particles with the field, the more mass they appear to have. Thus the existence of this field is essential in Higg's hypothesis for the production of the mass of particles.
The trouble with this whole analogy is that it is misleading.
The Higgs field only manifests itself on matter with delta v changes (changes in velocity).
Thus the Higgs field offers resistance when you attempt to speed matter up, and resistance if you attempt to slow matter down. The Higgs field thus gives rise to inertia.
However, something traveling through molasses encounters resistance even while at a constant velocity. (no delta v).
ie: If you throw a ball in molasses it will stop. If you throw a ball in space it will go on forever.
So an analogy has to take this into account.
Pesse (duck, duck, duck, duck...GEESE!) Mist
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Qkslvr
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/23/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: NE Ohio, US
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I keep thinking that acceleration is going to be a rotation into the 4 dimension. Once rotated there's no force required to stay at that rotation.
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Mike
N8/CG-5/40D
Coming sometime/Maybe FrankenRebel
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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Quote:
The trouble with this whole analogy is that it is misleading.
The Higgs field only manifests itself on matter with delta v changes (changes in velocity).
Quote:
This is similar to the action of viscous forces felt by particles moving through any thick liquid. the larger the interaction of the particles with the field, the more mass they appear to have. Thus the existence of this field is essential in Higg's hypothesis for the production of the mass of particles.
I would think that the "interaction" described above is about the particles passing through the field and that interaction is due to a change in velocity.
I would read again your "goose" analogy.
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"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis
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Mike K
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 464
Loc: Central Texas
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Does all of this imply that a particle that is NOT MOVING would therefore have no mass?
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Clear skies,
Mike K.
30°31" N 97°44" W, LP: Red
Observe: Once or twice a week back yard, once a month under dark skies
Favorites: Globulars, planets, face-on spirals
Equipment: CPC925/XT10i/TMB-92SS/Lunt LS60THaDS
Eyepieces: Naglers, Ethoi, UO HDs, Hyperion Zoom
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Does all of this imply that a particle that is NOT MOVING would therefore have no mass?
the honest answer is I don't know and neither does anyone else.
In fact, one variation of the Mach principle states that an object in the universe, separated by sufficient distance to isolate it from the influence of every other object in the universe, does not posses mass. It is only with the influence of something else does mass manifest itself.
(sort of like...If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it still make a sound?)
We don't even know if there is such a thing as the Higgs field.
In any event the Higgs field only gives rise to inertial mass. This is distinct from rest mass.
For example, a photon has no rest mass but does have a certain amount of inertial (sometimes called gravitational) mass. Hence they can push solar sails.
Rest mass is a bit more complicated. No one really knows where it comes from (lots of guesses thou).
One theory is that rest mass projects in from other, folded up, dimensions and it's spilling out into our familiar 3 spacial dimensions. It is then scaled out by a process moderated by the Higgs bosons.
We see this scaled out leakage as a distortion in space and time.....we recognize this as a gravity field.
I tried to keep this really, really simple to answer your question but it'll probably make real physicists gag on their grog.
I'm old and lately physicists have been shying away from terms like relativistic mass.
But mass is energy and energy is mass and it you put a single photon in a box with perfectly reflecting mirrors on each end, that box will take more force to accelerate because of the photons presence so, yes, a photon in motion can be said to posses mass.
Pesse ( Now you know why physicists are so excited about answering some of these questions with the LHC ) Mist
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Mike K
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 464
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
One theory is that rest mass projects in from other, folded up, dimensions and it's spilling out into our familiar 3 spacial dimensions. It is then scaled out by a process moderated by the Higgs bosons.
Why bother with folded up dimensions wen we have a perfectly good 4th one... Time. Funny thing about time, we find ourselves constantly in MOTION through it. If the Higgs field permeates all 4 dimensions of space time, then perhaps rest mass is attributable to motion through the field in time.
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Clear skies,
Mike K.
30°31" N 97°44" W, LP: Red
Observe: Once or twice a week back yard, once a month under dark skies
Favorites: Globulars, planets, face-on spirals
Equipment: CPC925/XT10i/TMB-92SS/Lunt LS60THaDS
Eyepieces: Naglers, Ethoi, UO HDs, Hyperion Zoom
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Why bother with folded up dimensions wen we have a perfectly good 4th one... Time.
Because we need some way to account for the extremely weak force of gravity which appears to leak out from somewhere.
Gravity leaks out of mass like an ill-fitting Huggies leaks on a running toddler.
Pesse (All the way back to Einstein, gravity has been the partypooper.) Mist
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jfosc
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/29/07
Posts: 918
Loc: Quakertown, PA
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Regarding the molasses or thick viscous liquid analogies having problems:
I'm no physicist, but Brian Greene and Peter Higgs are. I didn't know Higgs himself made the or "thick viscous liquid" analogy, as I had only heard Brian Greene make the analogy. So perhaps and probably Dr. Greene was borrowing the analogy and I'm fine with that.
However, the molasses and thick viscous liquids analogies were made by a respected physicist as well as Higgs himself. Perhaps the "nuances" to fully describe the Higgs field weren't fully covered in the analogies in order to dumb it down (and I don't mean that in a bad way) but this analogy has its place at a 50,000 foot view.
Let's face it, few analogies cover a concept they are trying to explain in every detail. If you are presenting an analogy you are doing so with the goal of conveying the concept because it's not understood in its current form.
So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record I think the "think viscous liquid" analogy does its job. There are certainly other analogies that are fine-tuned that convey more details about the Higgs field.
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-Jim
"The Universe is expanding. That should help ease the traffic" - Stephen Wright
"Listen, kid...when I was your age Pluto was a planet!"
Zhumell f/4.9 10" Dob w/ Upgrades
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Olympus 10x50 DPS R binocs
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