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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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This past Saturday night, my latest toy, the 13mm Ethos, got a good workout. Although "first light" had already taken place, that was from light-polluted Canton, where just being able to detect the Cygnus Milky Way overhead is a good night. Saturday night I was out at a dark-sky site used by the Wilderness Center Astronomy Club near Stillwell, OH, and joined by fellow WCAC members Phil Hoyle and Brian Gray.
As previously mentioned on this forum, acquiring the E-bomb wasn't my design. I was trying to sell a set of 25x100s + tripod + mount combo for cash, but with no takers, I offered bartering as an option. Thus, the Ethos was sent my way. With a 13T6 already in my arsenal, the Ethos felt extraneous, and would allow for quick cash if/when it goes on the selling block. Nevertheless...why not at least have some fun with this bad boy in the interim?
If Stillwell was the "firing range" for the E-Bomb, my two "howitzers" were my 120ST and my 16" f/4.5 truss dob. Transparency was good under Bortle Class 4 skies, and here are several impressions I could glean after the first serious night of "dropping" the E-Bomb on select deep-sky "targets":
M31 (120ST): I partnered the 120ST + 13E. WOW!!! The view in my old 25x100s was about a 2.4-deg FOV; this was just shy of 2.2-deg. Most of the galaxy was in the field of view, but the dust detail at 46X was incredible. The 2.6mm exit pupil was perfect for viewing this galaxy, but it's only a hyper-wide-angle EP that allows this huge a chunk of this galaxy to be seen with 120mm of aperture.
M45 (120ST): Wonderful. I was thinking the 2.6mm exit pupil would be an issue with diffusing the Merope nebulosity, but it stood out remarkably. That and the 2.17-deg TFOV comfortably encompassing all the cluster's members.
M33 (16" f/4.5): I've seen M33 under darker skies, but ironically I don't think I've had a better view. I didn't notice any difference in contrast / sharpness / faintest star detected with a 13E vs. the 13T6, BUT...the extra FOV just frames the galaxy better, like it's hanging right in front of your eye. The whole thing about a scope "disappearing" when looking through an Ethos? Believe it.
NGC 7331 (16" f/4.5): Not fair. I was looking at NGC 7331, and while I was admiring the sharp dust cutoff, I was using it to get my bearings for Stephan's Quintet...and then you can imagine my surprise when I realized that SQ, resolved to all 5 members, and NGC 7331 were in the *same* field of view--at 140X!
M81 + M82 (16" f/4.5): Again, not fair. I could see plenty of dust detail in M82, and the spiral arms of M81, all in the same field of view! It was tough since they were further towards the edge vs. SQ + NGC 7331, but just being able to pull that off at 140X was mind-boggling.
Now I've really got a moral dilemma! I knew the more I used this Ethos, the more I'd be disinclined to sell it. But I just don't have the heart to sell the 13T6, which was been as dependable, sharp, wide-angle and high-contrast an ocular one could hope to get for less than $250 on the used market.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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walt r
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/13/07
Posts: 2422
Loc: Doylestown, PA
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Did you get a chance to directly compare the E-bomb to the trusty N13?
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Walt
Obsession 18" f/4.45 #1370 AN/SC
MK67 Deluxe 6" f/12 Mak-Cass, Super Polaris GEM, JMI MicroMax DSC
DIY 60mm f/6 Achromat
Cookbook 245 CCD
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 3369
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
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Quote:
Now I've really got a moral dilemma! I knew the more I used this Ethos, the more I'd be disinclined to sell it. But I just don't have the heart to sell the 13T6, which was been as dependable, sharp, wide-angle and high-contrast an ocular one could hope to get for less than $250 on the used market.
Clear Skies,
Phil
It is hard to part wih old trusted equipment. I still miss my Astroscan that went to a deserving home over twenty years ago. If it were me I would keep the Ethos and sell my original 13 mm Nagler friend of over 25 years.
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Ted
Tectron 25" dobsonian 10x70 binoculars
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cuzimthedad
Just Be Cuz
Reged: 04/09/06
Posts: 2734
Loc: Sonoma, Northern California
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Phil, I agree with Ted. Let the 13T6 go and keep the Ethos. You will grow very close to the 13E the more you put it to use, and it would be better for the 13T6 to be put to use by someone rather than sitting unused in your ep case.
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Dan
20" Obsession (Freedom I...aka cuzimthescope)
TV102 (Star Dagger)
LXD75 AR-6 (Phoenix)
Megrez 80SD
Antares 1529 (Awaiting arrival)
Bushnell 7X50 Binoc
Zhumell 20X80 Astro-binocs
EPs: TV 5,7,9,11 T6s, 17 & 22 T4s, 31T5, 13E.
The Off Fisher Lane Irregulars
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hoof
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 1424
Loc: Irvine, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Now I've really got a moral dilemma! I knew the more I used this Ethos, the more I'd be disinclined to sell it. But I just don't have the heart to sell the 13T6, which was been as dependable, sharp, wide-angle and high-contrast an ocular one could hope to get for less than $250 on the used market.
Clear Skies,
Phil
It is hard to part wih old trusted equipment. I still miss my Astroscan that went to a deserving home over twenty years ago. If it were me I would keep the Ethos and sell my original 13 mm Nagler friend of over 25 years.
I know what you two mean. I still have my Meade 4000 14mm UWA, even though it's now almost completely obsoleted by my Ethos 13mm. (I say "almost" because the UWA has much less rectilinear distortion, so it does have *something* over the ethos!) But I can't bring myself to sell it. So I now have both, and only the Ethos gets used 
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Jonathan Hoof
15" F/4.14 Discovery Truss
8" F/5.9 Orion XT8i
6" F/6 Intes-Micro MN66
4.5" F/4 Orion Starblast
80mm F/7.5 Orion 80ED
18x50 IS Canon binoculars
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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I have compared the two, both in my driveway and Saturday night at Stillwell. In terms of image quality, I can't tell the difference. The wider FOV with the E-Bomb makes for some stunning views, though.
The 13T6 still gets plenty of use. I just can't part with it easily, and it has come through in the clutch every time. For its price, I just can't beat it. I can afford to live without the Ethos with a 13T6 in the arsenal, but I wouldn't sleep well if I sold the 13T6.
Truth be told, I'd rather have a 13T6 + 17T4 combo vs. a 13mm Ethos. Yes, a 17T4 + 12T4/13T6 combo is often traded away for a 13E, but I'd rather have the ability to change magnification, image scale and exit pupil. Right now, I'm setting on $910 worth of 13mm eyepieces, and that's real money on this end, so one has to go.
Push comes to shove, the E-bomb would have to go due to financial reasons. Heck, if I wanted to, I could swap it for a 31T5, and have a 31T5 / 23 Ax / 13T6 / 9T6 line-up, which would really, really rock.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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coutleef
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/08
Posts: 827
Loc: Montreal and St-Donat, Québec,...
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Now you are introducing a new variable: the real question is to keep the Ethos 13 or sell the Ethos and obtain a 31T5. That seems a more difficult choice then between the 13 T6 or Ethos.
I sold my pan 19 for a pan 22 because the 19 was too close to my 17T4. I felt bad about it because i really liked the 19pan. But now that i got used to the new combo, i am glad i did it.
For you, the choice was clearer between two EPs with the same FL.
But now it is less clear: between an Ethos 13 versus the nagler 31 and you keep an excellent 13mm nagler. The 31T5 has always been described as a killer EP. Could you settle for an axiom 31 that is less costly and that could allow to keep the Ethos? I think you have been satisfied by the axioms before.
Tougher choice than it seemed initially!
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François
Nexstar 8 SE
50mm StellarVue finderscope, Astronomik UHC-E and Orion OIII filters
WO Swan 40mm; TV Pan 22mm; TV Nagler 9T6, 12T4, 17T4; TV Plossl 11mm and 15mm.
WO 2" dielectric diagonal retrofitted with Denk Power Switch (and now reach the zenith with the shorty adapter).
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coutleef
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/08
Posts: 827
Loc: Montreal and St-Donat, Québec,...
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Lets get this even more confusing: what if you kept the Ethos, sold your 13T6, sold your axiom 23 and got yourself a 26T5 instead of a 31. Several of us wrote that they prefered the darker background obtained with the 26 versus 31 in LP skies?
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François
Nexstar 8 SE
50mm StellarVue finderscope, Astronomik UHC-E and Orion OIII filters
WO Swan 40mm; TV Pan 22mm; TV Nagler 9T6, 12T4, 17T4; TV Plossl 11mm and 15mm.
WO 2" dielectric diagonal retrofitted with Denk Power Switch (and now reach the zenith with the shorty adapter).
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RAKing
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 824
Loc: Clouds-ville, Virginia
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Quote:
Truth be told, I'd rather have a 13T6 + 17T4 combo vs. a 13mm Ethos. Yes, a 17T4 + 12T4/13T6 combo is often traded away for a 13E, but I'd rather have the ability to change magnification, image scale and exit pupil.
Phil,
I don't understand this sometimes, either. I have the 13 Ethos, but I kept all of my T4 Naglers. In my scopes, the 17 still has a slightly wider FOV than the 13 Ethos and the 12T4 has higher magnification. Some nights, I'll bounce between the 17 and the 12 and never pull the 13 Ethos out of the box. Everything depends on my sky condition and my selected object.
My suggestion: Do what you feel is right. You are the only one who has to know what your final decision will be. I love the Ethos and would keep it, but I am not you and if the 13T6 gives you that same "WOW" factor.... that's your answer. 
Take care,
Ron
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Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Orion XT10i / Moonlite CR2 -- The New "Time Machine"
"Hi Def" TV-102
C925-CF SCT
Ethos and Naglers
GM-8 GEM / A-P Portable Pier
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Now you are introducing a new variable: the real question is to keep the Ethos 13 or sell the Ethos and obtain a 31T5. That seems a more difficult choice then between the 13 T6 or Ethos.
I sold my pan 19 for a pan 22 because the 19 was too close to my 17T4. I felt bad about it because i really liked the 19pan. But now that i got used to the new combo, i am glad i did it.
For you, the choice was clearer between two EPs with the same FL.
But now it is less clear: between an Ethos 13 versus the nagler 31 and you keep an excellent 13mm nagler. The 31T5 has always been described as a killer EP. Could you settle for an axiom 31 that is less costly and that could allow to keep the Ethos? I think you have been satisfied by the axioms before.
Tougher choice than it seemed initially!
At the end of the day, if the E-Bomb gets sent packing, I'd probably just pocket the cash given the gloomy outlook on the economy. In my income bracket, I'd feel a bit more comfortable right now with an extra half-grand in my pocket vs. a 31T5.
I will confirm what others have said about the Ethos. It's every bit as good as advertised. If you're out there and considering an Ethos purchase and feel you can afford it, all I can say is--believe the hype.
My choice would have been FAR easier if I didn't have the 13T6. Without a killer 12/13mm EP already in the arsenal, I'd keep the Ethos.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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rmollise
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 1671
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Quote:
At the end of the day, if the E-Bomb gets sent packing, I'd probably just pocket the cash given the gloomy outlook on the economy. In my income bracket, I'd feel a bit more comfortable right now with an extra half-grand in my pocket vs. a 31T5.
Well...I think it was Frank of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers who once said, "Eyepieces will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no eyepieces" or sumpin like that. 
Economy shmeconomy. I couldn't resist another minute. I have an 8 on the way.
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Uncle Rod
Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT--coming in December!
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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2521
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Phillip:
It's your eyepieces, your astro-enjoyment, your money, your financial situation - and it will not deprive or affect the rest of us one whit should you sell the 13E and keep the 13T6 and 17T4 for the reasons you have described. Having all three of these same eyepieces in my own stable, I too still immensely enjoy the 13T6 and 17T4, even after the arrival of the 13E, even though I don't use them as much as before. The only reason I too am not facing the pragmatic choice of which one(s) to sell is that I am fortunate enough (at least for the moment) to not have any financial need to do so - but if that changed (and it always can these days) I certainly would. As fond as I am of all three, the decision would come down to which gave the most useful, best-quality astro-experience, not which had been around the longest.
You speak of the 13T6 as if it was a beloved longtime household pet, a longhair dog you realized was going to be problematic to keep around if you kept that beautiful, wonderfully comfortable (expensive) 80-inch couch (the 13E). Realize that the 13T6 and 17T4 are in the end, inanimate tools that have no attachment to you whatsoever - they would just as equally serve whatever new master bought them from you and snuggle just as comfortably in his eyepiece case as they did with you - without so much as a glance back toward you for all those years. The only "memory" they will retain of you will be NOT of the times spent with you under dark skies looking at wonderous objects deep out into the universe, but rather only of the few flecks of green paint you've worn off the TeleVue logo on their barrels handling them, a few minor cosmetic scratches here and there. In other words, if they had a perspective, you're just the dude that incrementally wore them out a bit using them like ocular mules, good riddance.
IN SHORT: Keep the one(s) of the three that will do the most for your astronomical viewing experience. You can readily get just over $500 for either the 13T6/17T4, or else the 13Ethos, should you need to. But do it for sound, pragmatic reasons - they're inanimate eyepieces, not pets, and all three of them would sit there like rocks on your shelf and impassively watch you drown, literally or financially, should that happen.
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Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
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turtle86
sage
Reged: 10/09/06
Posts: 301
Loc: Between Umatilla and Astatula
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Great report. Just wait till you get to see M51 in your 13mm Ethos.
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Rob
18" Starmaster
8" LX200
Too many Naglers
Off-topic distractions:
Red Sox, modern lit, golf, tennis, Pearl Jam, Monty Python, chess, fine beer (Chimay!) and cheap wine
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mblack
Upperclass Twit of the Year
Reged: 10/31/05
Posts: 2336
Loc: Naples, Florida
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Nice clear and easy read Phil. If anyone has gotten the bug from this, here's the cure. Two, no less. NOT affiliated with the seller.
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-Dave
C11 ~ CGE ~ 101mm refractor ~ EZtouch ~ various eyepieces
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jimmoscheck
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 1061
Loc: Under the SE Michigan lightdom...
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Quote:
Well...I think it was Frank of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers who once said, "Eyepieces will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no eyepieces" or sumpin like that.
Economy shmeconomy. I couldn't resist another minute. I have an 8 on the way.
Hi Rod,
Me, too, except it arrived yesterday. I bought it "used" as the seller had a bit of buyers remorse after he bought two for binoviewing and sold me one of them unopened. Was even able to use it last night with my lightcup and even with the Moon I saw M31 and 32, double cluster, M13, M92, and Jupiter all in an hours observing. I can't wait to take it and the 13 Ethos to dark skies myself. I hear the 8mm Ethos is awesome on globs in a medium sized dob. So far, at least with the refractor, the 8E seems just as good as the 13E. 
--------------------
Jim Moscheck
14.5" f4.3 home built Kriege stlye truss
Stevens primary
"A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open." - Frank Zappa
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ovgjr
journeyman
Reged: 09/14/08
Posts: 7
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I have almost all the TV eyepieces, including the 13 & 8 Ethos. I would never consider selling any of them. My 8 Plossl still gets lots of use on the planets.
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Tele-Vue 60is
Tele-Vue 102
Losmandy G11
Ethos 8mm
Ethos 13mm
Ethos 6mm pre-ordered
Ethos 17mm pre-ordered
Nagler 31mm T5
Nagler 26mm T5
Nagler 20mm T5
Nagler 16mm T5
Nagler 13mm T6
Nagler 11mm T6
Nagler 9mm T6
Nagler 7mm T6
Nagler 5mm T6
Nagler 3.5mm T6
Nagler 2.5mm T6
Nagler 2-4 zoom
Panoptic 41mm
All the TV Plossls
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j3ffr0
sage
Reged: 07/06/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Virginia
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Phil,
Thanks for sharing your dilemma and doing a direct comparison with the 13T6. It sounds like you don't want to let go of the 13T6. I haven't had mine for nearly as long as you have, but I have some attachment to my 13T6. In addition to being a sentimental gift that I saw many things through for the first time, there is something about the type 6 Naglers I find appealing. I like the price/performance ratio as well as the compact, usable size. They're just real good all around. I'm sure I'll also be able to lavish praise upon the Ethos when I'm lucky enough to get a look through one. Every piece of gear has a story.
You have a tough, but enviable choice to make. Heck, you could even keep both. The right decision for you will reveal itself soon enough. As for me, I think I'll probably stick with my type 6 Naglers and Pans for the foreseeable future. Maybe one day an E-bomb will find me and blow up in my face.
 
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10" Dob
127mm Mak
PST
35, 24 Panoptic; 16, 13, 9 Nagler
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10489
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Hmmm, looking into my magical crystal ball, the stars tell me that if you get rid of your Ethos you'll be living with regret for a long time...
Maybe if instead of selling it, you give it away to a worthy charity, you'll feel better about your choice.
I happen to be hungry right now...
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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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j3ffr0,
You might be right--I might be so struck with "paralysis by analysis" that maybe the smart thing to do is just hold onto them for a while. I gotta be honest--it's nice to load up with "special ordinance" when there's an extended deep-sky object!!
Mind you, I'm making a comparison w/o a Paracorr with the 16" f/4.5. Coma from the mirror *is* visible along the edges, but that's also the case with the 13T6. In my 120mm f/5 refractor, though, both EPs are razor-sharp at the edges. Again, in terms of overall image quality, I can't tell the difference between them, other than the larger FOV of the Ethos.
As it stands right now, your 24P / 13T6 pairing complements itself VERY well. A 24P / 13E pairing, though, means the former has just 25% wider TFOV vs. the latter.
Clear Skies,
Phil
--------------------
"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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j3ffr0
sage
Reged: 07/06/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Virginia
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Phil,
Nothing wrong with enjoying them both. You can sell either one anytime you want to. Both will probably hold their value better than my 401k. 
I'm really happy with my line-up right now. All my EPs are relatively compact at 1 1/4" except for the 35mm which doesn't come out that often. Compactness is only a minor convenience, but if I added a 13 Ethos it would seem make sense to replace the 24 pan with a 2 incher in the 22-26 range. But I really like the 24 Pan too. So I see how an 13 Ethos upgrade could quickly multiply into other upgrades in my collection.
I can't say I'll never do it... I'm all for the Ethos. I can't wait to get the chance to look through one. However, it'll probably be a couple years before I reconsider retooling for the big ordinance.
Clear skies to you and your E-bomb!
--------------------
10" Dob
127mm Mak
PST
35, 24 Panoptic; 16, 13, 9 Nagler
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