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Antenox
journeyman
Reged: 10/10/08
Posts: 7
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Ok, I'm shopping around for my first telescope since my old Meade refractor, and I'm having a bit of trouble deciding what to get. I figure it's easier to describe what I want to achieve with my first scope, so here it goes.
PRIORITIES:
- Viewing deep space objects is absolutely my no. 1 priority in looking for a telescope. Nebulae, twin stars, galaxies, etc. These are what I'm most interested in, and I'd like a telescope that can display these cosmic structures in detail.
- Astrophotography is very low on my priorities. I don't even have a decent camera to use. I may develop an interest in the future, but TBH, I've never been a photo buff. I've always much preferred looking at things with my own eyes.
- I have almost no interest in planetary bodies right now. If I can see detail in them with my (prospective) new telescope, then great. That said, I DO want to be able to see the moon in great detail.
- Price/performance ratio is my #2 priority. My budget is around $1,000, give or take a couple of hundred, but I would rather buy an $800 telescope over a $1,200 telescope if the differences are more or less negligible with regards to what I want it to do (see previous).
- Portability is a concern. I live in Los Angeles, which means I'll have to take a bit of a drive to get to a nice, dark spot. A nice case included with the telescope is a plus, but I'll probably end up buying a good hard-shelled case anyway, so suggestions for this are welcome.
- Ease of use is a concern. I want to take my friends out on stargazing trips, which means as little setup as possible. This is not that big priority compared to price/performance ratio, but some kind of "GO-TO" functionality is a must.
- Good out-of-the-box performance. I know that there are some telescopes that are sold for a reasonable price, but are limited in capabilities without expensive accessories. I will undoubtedly purchase accessories in the future, but for convenience's sake, I would like a telescope that's good to go right out of the box.
CURRENT OPTIONS:
I've narrowed my shortlist down to a few 6" and 8" telescopes from Meade and Celestron:
- Meade LXD75 SN-6 AT
- Meade LXD75 SN-8 AT
- Meade ETX-125 PE
- Celestron C6-SGT
- Celestron C6-NGT
- Celestron C8-NGT
- Celestron NexStar 5 SE
- Celestron NexStar 6 SE
That's the shortlist. But if there are any other options that fit the bill, please suggest them. I'm not picky about brands/models (although I do like the aesthetics of the NexStar SEs....)
ADDENDUM:
I wonder, I know that a high focal ratio negatively affects deep-space astrophotography, but does it matter for simple visual observation? Also, should I be worried about coma in the Newtonians above compared to other models, since I heard that Newtonians and Schmidt-Newtonians with very short focal ratios have a problem with coma. (I'm not even sure what coma looks like when viewing deep space objects, or if it's an issue at all.)
That's really the only reason why I haven't ruled out the 5" and 6" models yet in favor of the 8" ones. I know that aperture size is the most important factor in image quality, but I don't like the idea of optical distortions, either. That, and the 8" models look tedious to set up (counterweights?).
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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when i read your post the first thing that came to mind was the orion intelliscope. if dso's are your number 1 priority i would suggest you get as much aperture as you can afford. the intelliscope is a dobsonion type scope with a push to system. it's not goto but works just as well finding dso's. you can check them out at orion www.oriontelescopes.com with your budget you could get an 8-10" scope. this scope may work for you and it may not it's just another option for you the think about.
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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I would look into an 8-10" Dob with object locator. Not exactly GoTo, but "Push-To" (It tells you where it is, and you "Zero in" when you move the scope). Both will fit into the back seat of any car, but if you want more room, a Truss type would easily come apart to allow more room, but costs a bit more.
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2537
Loc: Markham Ont.
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Take time to consider what gearhead says. A 10" will give great views. I have one and I like it so far. If you are fussy with your star alignment the object will be in the eyepiece When the computer says it's there. What kind of car or truck do you have for transporting your scope? My tube rides in the back seat of my pick up with room for my ep case on the end. Pardon me for forgetting to welcome you to Cloudy Nights.  
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Orion xt10i
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
koning 32mm 25mm skywatcher eyepieces
lumicon 0111 & antares variable polarizing filters
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 2890
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
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Hi Antenox,
Welcome to Cloudy Nights. It appears that you have narrowed your choices from the start. It also seems that you want a telescope that perfectly suits your needs. I would suggest that you make an attempt to locate astronomy clubs in your area in the hopes of actually looking through and talking to the owners of the types of telescopes you have selected as possible candidates. This way you won't be disappointed when you finally purchase one. Remember there is always the possibility that you may change your mind and return here with other options. Please feel welcome anytime.
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Ted
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 2890
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
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Hi Anonymous,
Welcome to Cloudy Nights. I see that you have no post count even though you have just posted.  You also have a title that says "unregistered". Interesting indeed.
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Ted
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2537
Loc: Markham Ont.
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Quote:
Hi Anonymous,
Welcome to Cloudy Nights. I see that you have no post count even though you have just posted. You also have a title that says "unregistered". Interesting indeed.
I missed that glad you caught it. How is that possible? Possibly a member is invisible to others But still can post.
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Orion xt10i
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
koning 32mm 25mm skywatcher eyepieces
lumicon 0111 & antares variable polarizing filters
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
Edited by panhard (10/10/08 10:25 PM)
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Astrosetz
sage
Reged: 10/05/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Wisconsin
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From what you're saying I think a 10" Intelliscope would be the ticket. It is much better suited than the 6" or even 8" CATs in regards to your criteria.
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-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
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azskies
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/29/07
Posts: 1190
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Welcome to CN! If DSO's are a priority then go for the apature. A Meade 12" Lightbridge is around $899. That's what I have and I love the performance and views. It's very portable, my co observer has a Toyota Prius and we fit my scope and eyepiece case as well as his 10" tube dob with base, computer, table, etc. just nicely. You will have to make some mods tho on the Lightbridge, like Bobs Knobs, a shroud for starters. Just a heads up on that. Go to a local astronomy club meeting and look through their scopes to get an idea of the views in the different types of scopes out there. Good luck and let us know what you decided on!
Jeff
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Meade 12" Deluxe Light Bridge
Meade series 4000 QX 26mm wide angle
Meade series 5000 20mm
Orion Stratus 13mm wide angle
Meade series 4000 15mm eyepiece
Thousand Oaks UHC Filter
Meade 2X Telenegative Amplifier
Howie Glatter 1 1/4 635nm single beam laser
The Blug!
Tectron Chesire and Site Tube Collimation eyepieces
AstroZap Light Shield
A cool looking eye patch!
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insinu8
sage
Reged: 01/22/08
Posts: 344
Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
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DSO's and double/multiple stars require, in my opinion, two different types of scope to get the best views. A large reflector would be best for DSO's (nebulas, galaxies, globular clusters) and for the star splitting (and clusters) I'd go for a refractor.
I'm not saying you won't enjoy looking at the stars with a reflector, but once you've tried a refractor, it will be difficult to be satisfied with a reflector.
So, if you want to concentrate on DSO's, go for the biggest reflector that fits your budget. If you insist on GoTo (which can be a very nice feature) you'll probably cut your OTA budget in half (or more) to get it. Smaller OTA = less detail on the DSO's.
It's always a tradeoff.
I'd recommend what others have said. Consider a large Dob with COL. It will help you find things, give you a ton of photon collecting ability and be easier to set up & use.
My approach to this same conundrum was to buy the biggest Dob I could fit in my car (and still have a passenger).
Good luck with your decision and welcome to CN!
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Christopher
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AT66ED
ED80
120ST (Moonlit)
NP127is
TMB 130SS
MN55 (Moonlit)
150MCT
TEC160ED (DOB: 11.06.08)
SN8
MN86
C9.25 (Moonlit)
XT10 Dob
Obsession 18"UC
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Jim Haley
sage
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 252
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In the range at which you should be looking (8"-12") weight can become an issue. Definitely take a peak at some scopes at a star party before committing. I got to see a dob mounted reflector by asking to see the astronomy teacher at my local science museum. Ease of set up and car transportation rapidly shifted my focus off "tripod" mounted scopes to a dob mounted reflector.
Here is what I thought as I read your post.....
PRIORITIES:
- Viewing deep space objects ...no. 1 priority ....=> big aperture dob.
- and I'd like a telescope that can display these cosmic structures in detail. => Big aperture dob will have the most detail.... although most deep sky objects are shades of gray, dim fuzzies. While any 2" aperture jump will show significantly more detail, no affordable visual scope will compare to pictures you see in magazines.
- Astrophotography low priorities. => Dob mounted reflector
- I may develop an interest in the future. => Get a refractor in the future,
- I've always much preferred looking at things with my own eyes => Dob
- ...almost no interest in planetary bodies right now....I DO want to be able to see the moon in great detail. => Any telescope will show lots of moon detail. Again a dob with a 45" or longer focal length will serve you well here as well as on the planets.
- Price/performance ratio is my #2 priority. My budget is around $1,000, give or take a couple of hundred, but I would rather buy an $800 telescope over a $1,200 telescope if the differences are more or less negligible with regards to what I want it to do. => Every 2" (roughly $200) added in aperture does give significantly better views. 10" and above can be hard to lift though.
- Portability is a concern. ...I'll have to take a bit of a drive to get to a nice, dark spot... Dobs are very car portable but NOT plane portable. Above 10" at least two trips to the car necessary.
- Ease of use is a concern. I want to take my friends out on stargazing trips, which means as little setup as possible. => Again big dob, a solid tube is easier to move around but above 10" aperture can get hard to lift. Then folks go with a truss tube dob which is less bulky but requires longer setup (about 5 minutes).
- some kind of "GO-TO" functionality is a must. => Oops... dobs are manual or "push to". Push to is actually faster and often easier to setup than Goto. Plus when in a hurry you can skip push to setup and just use manual pointing.
- Good out-of-the-box performance. => Any $800 dob will be good to go right out of the box. You will need to add a good book(s) (Nightwatch by Dickenson, Turn Left at Orion, Astronomy Hacks, and/or Illustrated Guide to Astronomical Wonders by Thompson) and a red flashlight. Many of the books can be tried from your local library. You might need a telrad, maybe a stool, and perhaps the Pocket sky atlas. Leave about $50 to $200 in your budget for these things. You will probably want to add (if it does not come with the scope) a widefield eyepiece (about 31mm) for $100 - $300 or more.
Most important of all..... find a knowledgeable friend or astronomy club for scope previews and for help the first night out. One look is worth a thousand words on this forum.
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Jim Haley
12.5" f6 Starsplitter Dob
Orion 8" XTi (with computerized object locator)
Orion 114EQ reflector
80mm f6 refractor
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Antenox
journeyman
Reged: 10/10/08
Posts: 7
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Thanks, everyone! It looks like people aren't too concerned with the lack of an automated motor, so maybe I shouldn't be, as well. I only considered it a "must" because the first time I ever tried a telescope, the Earth's rotation was significant enough that we had to keep adjusting the scope every now and then, and that took some of the fun out of what we were doing.
I'm definitely considering a 12" truss Dobsonian now. The Lightbridge actually was one of my very first choices, but I stopped considering it because of the lack of automation.
Here's a question: Why are the Orion Intelliscopes so expensive? The XX12 Intelliscope (truss Dobsonian, shipping 11/08) looks very nice, but it's $400 more expensive than the Lightbridge ($1299 to $899), and it seems incredible to me that two telescopes that are so similar would vary so differently in price. Are the Lightbridge and Intelliscope both "Push-To"?
And just so I understand this correctly, "Push-To" is just "Go-To" but without the motors, right? No star charts to interpret; I just manually rotate the scopes to specific coordinates and I'm good, right?
EDIT:
Another question: Another one of the reasons I dropped the Lightbridge early on was because it didn't strike me as an "all-around" scope. If I WAS to develop an interest, even a passing interest, in astrophotography or in viewing planets/stars in the future, what kind of scope would you guys suggest? I'm not sure I'd want to invest $1000 in one specialized scope, then $1,000 in another specialized scope.
Is there a particular kind of scope that provides very good deep sky observation, but can also be adapted to be good for other viewing purposes (solar photography, astrophotography, planetary viewing, etc.)? That would probably be my best overall choice, even if I had to sacrifice on the aperture.
Edited by Antenox (10/11/08 04:27 AM)
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BooBoo
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/21/06
Posts: 1108
Loc: Tarzana, California, USA
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The Meade LightBridge is 100% manual. You find your target via star hopping using charts and a good spotter (Telrad or similar). The Orion XX12 comes equipped with Digital Setting Circles and a Computerized Object Locator (Intelliscope handset). With it you enter the object you want to view in the handset and it provides arrows to show you which way to push the telescope to get it into the field of view (push-to). It's mostly a convenience factor, but it sure sounds like the XX12 is more in line with what you're looking for. Neither has any goto or tracking capability without considerable added cash outlay. That means you have to manually follow the target, but to be totally honest once you get used to the process it becomes second nature. You do it without even realizing you are.
Something else you might want to consider. A goto telescope needs a power source. If you're lucky that can be an AC outlet, but will more often require access to a 12v DC supply. Dobs in general take absolutely no power supply whatsoever, although the COL on the XX12 would need batteries to function. Still much lighter than lugging a 12v car battery around, or being stuck next to your car for a power source.
As for your location (what part of LA, by the way) I strongly suggest you don't consider anything smaller than an 8" aperture unless you intend to drive 1.5-2 hours to observe. That would get you to Mt. Pinos from most parts of LA, or well out into the Antelope Valley past Palmdale/Lancaster. While the skies in those areas still aren't truly dark, they're incomparably better than any you'll find in the LA Basin. A larger objective will allow you to view many objects that would otherwise be totally invisible in LA's light polluted skies. Aperture truly is king for the viewing conditions we have around here. Given your desire to view DSOs that is even more true. I'm not saying you couldn't get great views with other telescope types, but you just can't beat a large Dob for the dollar/inch-of-aperture value.
One thing I strongly suggest is making your way to the monthly Public Star Party at Griffith Observatory, put on jointly by the Los Angeles Astronomical Society (LAAS) and Los Angeles Sidewalk Astronomers (LASA). The next will be on November 8. There are usually several examples of all telescope types, as well as extremely knowledgeable individuals available to answer questions.
Oh, one last thing...you mentioned getting good detail viewing the Moon? Well, how about this:
Both photos above were taken by me via the eyepiece projection method using my Orion SkyQuest 8" Dob.
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BooBoo
aka Barry
"Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth." - Ptolemy
Orion SkyQuest XT8 Classic Dobsonian
 Griffith Observatory, Los Angeles, CA
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 9488
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
Thanks, everyone! It looks like people aren't too concerned with the lack of an automated motor, so maybe I shouldn't be, as well. I only considered it a "must" because the first time I ever tried a telescope, the Earth's rotation was significant enough that we had to keep adjusting the scope every now and then, and that took some of the fun out of what we were doing.
That's correct, but it's pretty intuitive on a Dobsonian-mounted telescope, and at relatively low power it's a non-issue (so ir only becomes important for really small objects, like the planets and small planetary nebulae or galaxies). You can aways add an equatorial platform later if it really bothers you, but these do cost roughly $500.
Quote:
Here's a question: Why are the Orion Intelliscopes so expensive?
They have digital setting circles and more accessories.
Quote:
Are the Lightbridge and Intelliscope both "Push-To"?
No - the Lightbridge is not push-to. Which is one of the more important differences.
Quote:
And just so I understand this correctly, "Push-To" is just "Go-To" but without the motors, right? No star charts to interpret; I just manually rotate the scopes to specific coordinates and I'm good, right?
Yes. On the other hand, I'm not sure your fear of star charts is rational; I tend not to use the Intelliscope to find most objects when I use someone else's Intelliscope Dob; I can find things like most Messiers and a couple of hundred NGCs faster than I can punch in numbers in the controller, especially if the scope as a green laser pointer finder  .
Quote:
If I WAS to develop an interest, even a passing interest, in astrophotography or in viewing planets/stars in the future, what kind of scope would you guys suggest?
Planets are fine in a scope ike that. Astrophotography likely either requires a platform under that scope (for webcam planetary photography) or a different scope depending on what discipline you're talking about (there are at least three).
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400mm f/4.46 David Lukehurst truss Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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Antenox
journeyman
Reged: 10/10/08
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Yes. On the other hand, I'm not sure your fear of star charts is rational; I tend not to use the Intelliscope to find most objects when I use someone else's Intelliscope Dob; I can find things like most Messiers and a couple of hundred NGCs faster than I can punch in numbers in the controller, especially if the scope as a green laser pointer finder .
One thing you should remember when making suggestions to me (and I'm not sure if I mentioned this or not) is that I want to get a scope that my friends can use casually, not just myself. If it was just for me, then I wouldn't care much for automation. But my friends are just about the least tech-savvy, most low-maintenance-loving people in the world, and I'm basically the only techie in the group. They epitomize the "convenience culture." I buy separate surround sound components, they buy Bose. I build my own desktop PCs, they buy branded pre-built. I color-calibrate my HDTVs, they just max out the brightness and contrast (*cringe*). Etc., etc.
With this, I hope to get them to do more outdoors stuff as much as I hope to enjoy a new hobby. An example scenario: backyard stargazing during a barbecue. Or searching for nebulae during a beach bonfire. Or stargazing during a ski trip.
To BooBoo:
Quote:
As for your location (what part of LA, by the way) I strongly suggest you don't consider anything smaller than an 8" aperture unless you intend to drive 1.5-2 hours to observe. That would get you to Mt. Pinos from most parts of LA, or well out into the Antelope Valley past Palmdale/Lancaster. While the skies in those areas still aren't truly dark, they're incomparably better than any you'll find in the LA Basin. A larger objective will allow you to view many objects that would otherwise be totally invisible in LA's light polluted skies. Aperture truly is king for the viewing conditions we have around here. Given your desire to view DSOs that is even more true. I'm not saying you couldn't get great views with other telescope types, but you just can't beat a large Dob for the dollar/inch-of-aperture value.
Right now I'm in Fullerton in Orange County, but I'm going to be in Pasadena quite soon. However, my friends and I tend to hang out around the coastal areas (Santa Monica, Marina Del Rey). I don't know how good the stargazing is along the beaches (or if it's even recommended; salt air isn't generally the best thing to expose mechanisms to), but it did get pretty hazy down in Huntington Beach during the Perseids. The skies in the mountains near Arcadia and Pasadena were pretty clear, though, and even with the naked eye I could spot satellites overhead very easily.
I'm really considering now either an XX12 Dob, or (if I don't go for a Dob) a Meade LXD75 SN-8/10 or Celestron C8/C10-NGT. They're all a little more expensive than I had said I budgeted, but I have quite a bit of wiggle room, since I sort of expected I'd need to spend a bit more to see something in LA's hazy skies. The 5/6-inch options have all pretty much melted away.
Another thing that might turn me off on a Dob, even a truss Dob: plane portability is looking more and more desirable, because I have family in Chicago and San Francisco where I'd like to engage in a bit of amateur astronomy, as well. Then again, 10-inch scopes probably aren't very plane-portable either?
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Jim Haley
sage
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 252
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About 8" is the absolute maximum for plane portability (6" or less more than likely). Not worth the loss in performance from a 10" scope. Actually, worthwhile DSO telescopes just are not plane friendly . The luggage size restrictions are too strict.
If your friends really do not want to track with the dob.... you could add an eq platform later. However, I never found a person (out of dozens) who minded tracking with a dob once they were shown how. The right EQ platform could also be used for photography. A smaller astrophotography scope could also be airplane friendly.
Trying to get any scope to serve multiple functions usually leaves you with a severely compromised choice that is not really good at anything. That is why so many folks have multiple scopes. I would get my first scope set up to handle well 70% of possible observing conditions (Car transport, great views inside and outside of city, minimal cash outlay). Only once I had nailed the first 80% of observing opportunities (about 1 year later) would I consider photography, tracking, and airplane transport options.
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Jim Haley
12.5" f6 Starsplitter Dob
Orion 8" XTi (with computerized object locator)
Orion 114EQ reflector
80mm f6 refractor
Edited by Jim Haley (10/11/08 09:53 AM)
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2537
Loc: Markham Ont.
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If you want to go on a plane the dob is out unless you own the plane.
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Orion xt10i
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
koning 32mm 25mm skywatcher eyepieces
lumicon 0111 & antares variable polarizing filters
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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albert1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/01/07
Posts: 874
Loc: Northern New Jersey
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I suppose a 6" on an airliner at 30,000 feet will be just as good and better than a 12" on the ground. Just ask the pilot to keep her steady.
All kidding aside, your original post states DSO's are #1. Very simple, the bigger your mirror the more of those goodies you'll see and the planets and moon ain't bad either.
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Albert
Coulter Odyssey 10 (red)
Upgraded Astro Systems 2-speed Crayford
1984 C90 Astro, (cool little thing)
Upgraded to 1.25 visual back from .965
made a big difference in viewing quality.
Criterion Dynascope RV6
(another cool vintage scope w/an amazing little mirror)
Baader Hyperions
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Bob Griffiths
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4130
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Antenox....
First of all a warm welcome "aboard" CNs' forums.....
I will say that you are the first person that have seen who has asked about ease of use by his or her friends ...
BUT.
BBQ's and Barn Fires and Telescopes just do not belong
together... Smoke has a way of really screwing up a mirror, Barn Fires have a way of destroying your night vision...
Gem mounted scopes are definitely not easy to even point in the general direction of the moon for a novice ..
The simplest mounts to use are the Alt/Azm and Dobsonian mounts... both do not require heavy counter weights, which will allow your friends to use the scope without using a lot of brain power...
Truss Tube Dobs must be broken down after each use...must to put back together before each use, plus you have to align the optics each and every time you use the scope ...admittedly this is definitely not hard nor time consuming ...
I honestly am not a Dob lover...sold the only one I ever owned because I just did not like using it,.,..It was actually a nice easy to use scope that was both portable and transportable..
Also in my opinion Forget about airplanes ... rent a scope when you fly home...
Bob G.
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2537
Loc: Markham Ont.
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Quote:
I suppose a 6" on an airliner at 30,000 feet will be just as good and better than a 12" on the ground. Just ask the pilot to keep her steady.
All kidding aside, your original post states DSO's are #1. Very simple, the bigger your mirror the more of those goodies you'll see and the planets and moon ain't bad either.
Albert you can't use a scope on an airplane the windows do not slide open. The results would be terrible if you opened one. I also agree with the bigger the better. Providing that you can still move it around without too much effort. 
--------------------
Orion xt10i
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
koning 32mm 25mm skywatcher eyepieces
lumicon 0111 & antares variable polarizing filters
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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