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DeepSpaceTour
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/25/05
Loc: In the dark and"WAY"out there!
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: DeepSpaceTour]
#2766341 - 11/23/08 03:02 PM
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.....Oh!! I forgot to mention if you go to Kendricks web site they have a new collimator(came out last year)...that is a self contained single beam-barlowed collimator in one unit,you just flip a switch from single beam to barlowed collimation or visa-versa,the switch moves a barlowing lens in and out of the lazer beam path the laser has a 45deg. face,it is really quite the slick set up,if I didn't have what I already have,I would go for it for sure,think about it collimation without moving the tools around to change up,just flip a switch..cool, check it out!!!!
Clear skies.
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JR1560
super member
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: Athens, Ga. USA
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: csa/montana]
#2766373 - 11/23/08 03:25 PM
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I was waiting for Don to explain, but maybe you can help me.
I also plan for a permanent position. Just how do you collimate at f/4.5? It seems both the Meade & the AT go out of collomation when moved up and down.
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There's many, many happy Dob owners that don't feel that they have numerous design flaws, preventing them from holding collimation.
I know there are many Dob owners with no problems. I certainly wasn't refering to them, Nor did I mention anyone else. I was refering to the Meade Scope I have on order. I do believe there are some design issues that Meade or GSO should correct.
Edited by JR1560 (11/23/08 03:32 PM)
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csa/montana
Den Mama
   
Reged: 05/14/05
Loc: montana
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: JR1560]
#2766390 - 11/23/08 03:36 PM
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I have the CatsEye tools for collimation.
Hopefully, Jay or some other Meade owners can help answer your questions, & set your mind at ease. I think you would be most happy with the Meade; I wouldn't let the collimation stop you from enjoying that great scope.
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LateViewer
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Loc: Manhattan
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: csa/montana]
#2766412 - 11/23/08 03:52 PM
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Glatter Blug and Laser solved my collimation problems. So easy no guessing.
Al
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Loc: Los Angeles
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Daniel Mounsey]
#2766472 - 11/23/08 04:36 PM
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Hey Don,
If you were to pull out your autocollimator after the final alignment and put it back in, how close would the stacks appear to be again? I know you combine the stacks but I sometimes wonder about how the stacks appear just from the slight removal and return of the autocollimator. It's also interesting to observe how much flexure are in some of these dobs. You can see the stacks moving all over the place when moving the scopes up and down.
Daniel, Short answer: I alternate between the cheshire and autocollimator for final collimation. You can stack the images and have the primary slightly off, so I bring the stack together, check the primary alignment with the cheshire (often, it needs a tiny tweak), then check the stack in the autocollimator again. When I go back and forth between the cheshire and AC and neither shows any shift at all, I'm done. Therefore, reinserting the AC has no effect on the stacking of the centermarks.
The AC, but not the cheshire or sight tube, taught me my original scope had collimation shift with altitude. I had 4 problems: 1) sag in the spider when the scope pointed low and the entire weight of the secondary was beside, rather than uner, the spider. The cure was figuring out how to supertighten the vanes to prevent sag. It took modification of the scope. 2) movement of primary mirror on its springs. I figured this one out--the springs were nearly uncompressed, and flexed easily. Since my scope had no locking screws, the top spring flexed outward when the scope pointed low. The cure was to tighten the collimation springs all the way and collimate by loosening only. Now, the springs are so tight there is no movement. 3) movement of truss poles at point of attachment. The cure was to move the attachment points at the UTA outward so the poles on either side of the UTA were no longer parallel. This improved rigidity in the scope, and stopped slippage entirely. 4) flexure at the focuser. A complete rebuild of the JMI NGF-DX3 focuser almost eliminated this. A change to a Moonlite CR1 focuser DID eliminate this. I don't say that all JMI NGF focusers have or had (since they're discontinued) the problems mine had, but the Moonlite doesn't sag at all with the weight of a Paracorr and 31 Nagler in it. There is another reason for this, as well as the focuser's inherent rigidity--the tightening of the primary's collimation springs brought the focus point closer to the UTA, where the focuser is almost all the way in at focus. I think it likely nearly all focusers are more rigid when they focus closer to the tube.
At this point, I only periodically check for collimation change with altitude since the scope is substantially more stable. It's fascinating to watch collimation wander as the scope cools only to see the scope return to perfect collimation a couple hours later as the poles achieve thermal equilibrium.
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Loc: Los Angeles
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: JR1560]
#2766518 - 11/23/08 04:59 PM
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I ordered the Howie Glatter and the Blug. I thought this problem was solved. Why exactly do you need to collimate [better] at f /4.5 anyway? What is the process of collimating at f/4.5 [that's different from other f/ratios]. Aren't we splitting hairs here?
In my opinion, all the Catseye stuff is too expensive for my blood. Since there are no other 2" autocollimators on the Market? - What about this: Would this work with a 1.25 to 2" adaptor? http://www.agenaastro.com/JSP-EasyTester-II-Autocollimator-p/palc-js-etii.htm
Seems to me I have purchased a telescope that has numerous design flaws and won't hold collimation. Maybe I'll just cancel the Order, and all the accessories, and buy an SCT.
There is no difference in the process of collimation at f/4.5 than at f/8. The difference is that the maximum allowable tolerances for miscollimation shrink substantially. Therefore, a user of a shorter f/ratio scope needs to hone his skills at collimation.
The likelihood is that the Glatter laser and BLUG, if repeated (recheck after using each tool once), will get you close enough to perfect collimation to give you star images as close to perfect as the scope and seeing conditions allow.
The autocollimator is a far more sensitive tool, and collimation using it is closer to perfect than not using it. Will you see it? Perhaps not. But if the scope's collimation drifts slightly during the night, if you were AC perfect at the start, the miscollimation that occurs is less likely to drift to a point where miscollimation is visible.
And, if you use a Paracorr (you may, you may not), tolerances tighten by a factor of 6, making use of the autocollimator nearly essential.
A good 1.25" autocollimator will work fine. I would suggest the one from Astrosystems or the one from Tectron (discontinued, but still out there) If you can afford a dedicated 2" adapter for it, you essentially have a 2" tool. The 1.25" AC won't have as wide a field of view as a 2", but I've seen them in use, and they work well. A used Catseye might be found. And there are a couple more brands coming out soon. It seems more and more people are discovering the advantages of using one.
You haven't bought a scope that is inherently flawed, where collimation is concerned, just a scope that needs collimation. Once collimated, there doesn't appear to be any reason why the scope shouldn't retain collimation. Even very expensive scopes need to have tweaks made, though. I've helped some owners of very large scopes more expensive than my car go through the "shakedown" problems one experiences with nearly every new scope. I had one friend with a $60K+ scope have collimation problems for almost a year before they were satisfactorily eliminated.
And spending a few hours on the mechanicals of a scope seem negigible when amortized over the life of a scope. I don't even want to mention how many hours I spent rebuilding and refinishing parts of my scope.  But it was worth it, I think.
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Shawn H
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/16/07
Loc: Equatorial Guinea, West Africa
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: matthew2000tx]
#2766524 - 11/23/08 05:02 PM
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Matt I went with CatsEye passive tools because lasers can be knocked out of collimation! But Howie Glatter is high end stuff, Soooo there you go, decisions, decisions Shawn
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Loc: Los Angeles
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: JR1560]
#2766547 - 11/23/08 05:13 PM
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I also plan for a permanent position. Just how do you collimate at f/4.5? It seems both the Meade & the AT go out of collimation when moved up and down. I do believe there are some design issues that Meade or GSO should correct.
Every scope seems to have a few issues that the manufacturer has ignored. Jayscheuerle (user name) here on CN has rebuilt a Meade from scratch. If you read some of his past posts, you will get the lowdown on everything he encountered on his Meade along the way. It does seem, from other posts here on CN, that a few star washers or screw changes would go a long way on the 16" Meade. Meade has made running changes to these scopes as time has passed. I wouldn't be surprised to see some changes come along as the years go by. The first LightBridges didn't have an altitude brake, or a steel washer under the secondary collimation screws, and had innumerable other problems now fixed. And if you read Rod Mollise's treatise on the SCTs in the market over the years, you'll discover there have been a few, uh, problems with that type of scope through the years.
The key is to not expect perfection when you are paying an affordable price. Perfection requires a "military-sized" budget.
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JR1560
super member
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: Athens, Ga. USA
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2766621 - 11/23/08 06:10 PM
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i heard that GRS did replace the springs on the AT16 i reviewed with heavy duty ones. the scope still did not hold collimation.
--------------------
dave bonandrini
what we are talking about here is that the scope does not stay in collimation WHILE assembled.
you are right that every dob should be collimated EVERY time you take it out and use it.
(just thought i would clear that up before i get any more emails!)
--------------------
dave bonandrini
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It's also interesting to observe how much flexure are in some of these dobs. You can see the stacks moving all over the place when moving the scopes up and down.
D.Mounsey
In my opinion, regardless of price or quality, the collimation should hold moving the scope up or down. I see there are collimation issues with both the AT and the Meade. Or if you want to nail it down - GSO. I suspect there are design issues here.
So Don, we don't agree, but for now maybe you can explain
how an f/4.5 is collimated, and does Howie Glatter have a device that would autocollimate the LB 16.
Edited by JR1560 (11/23/08 06:15 PM)
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matthew2000tx
sage
Reged: 12/14/06
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: CatseyeMan]
#2766632 - 11/23/08 06:18 PM
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... CatsEye has too much ...
No doubt there is a "lot" of information I've put out on the site over the years, but I have something there for everyone's level of comprehension and interest; however, I'm always open to suggestions for improvement. If there's some non-useful or too technical information on the site that needs to be eliminated, let me know via email flyj@catseyecollimation.com or PM
Jim, I'm a visual person. I find it very hard to figure out the steps of using the catseye tools. There is no doubt that your tools are great, but I'm getting having trouble visualizing it all.
You have a lot of great info on your site, but what about making a "How to video with narration" that takes us through the whole process with Catseye from marking the Primary all the way to the last collimation check. Something like what Andy's Shot glass has on there website.
As Example!!
I think If I could see the whole process done before my eyes that would help.
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Loc: Los Angeles
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: JR1560]
#2766669 - 11/23/08 06:46 PM
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In my opinion, regardless of price or quality, the collimation should hold moving the scope up or down. I see there are collimation issues with both the AT and the Meade. Or if you want to nail it down - GSO. I suspect there are design issues here.
So Don, we don't agree, but for now maybe you can explain how an f/4.5 is collimated, and does Howie Glatter have a device that would autocollimate the LB 16.
John, We've communicated before about a few possible mods that could eliminate any movement that results from design-related issues, so I will just make some notes about the tools used and collimation. Glatter does not make an autocollimator.
Step 1: Center the secondary under the focuser and make it round by rotating the oval until it appears round. This is typically done once, and not again until the mirror is removed for cleaning. The tool to use is a sight tube, or, if you can hold your head steady enough, the focuser by backing your head away a few feet until you see the inside diameter of the focuser *just* larger than the outline of the reflective surface of the secondary. When these are concentric, you're done here. Step 2: using a single beam laser, or a sight tube, angle the secondary to put the beam in the center of the primary (laser) or the centermark behind the crosshairs (sight tube). Go back to step one to see if the secondary moved. If so, repeat step one and step two as many times as necessary until both agree at the same time. Step 3: using a barlowed laser (or a Blug), or a cheshire, or a Krupa collimator, align the primary to the optical axis. If the movement was more than a tiny bit, repeat step two to see if there is any movement. If so, repeat step two and three again until both agree at the same time.
To all intents and purposes, you can stop here. When all steps agree, then the return beam of the single beam laser should return to its source. You don't use this to collimate originally because there are many tilt solutions for the secondary and primary that can return the beam to its source that are not correct collimation, but once the scope is collimated, the return beam should return to its source.
At this point, if the laser wanders on the primary mirror when the scope moves up and down, something somewhere is moving. It could be flex in the truss poles, but more likely it is elsewhere--the screws, the spider tightness, the focuser, etc. But, no matter where it is, it can be tracked down and, if not eliminated, tamed to insignificance.
The autocollimator, at this point, can be used to collimate even more exactly. Some would argue that it's not necessary. Probably true, since, if the previous steps all show good agreement to your ability to discern the details, you are probably within tolerances. But if you want to collimate more exactly, the autocollimator can do so. If it shows no errors at all, it was the final arbiter of collimation. But, more likely, it will show that a further accuracy is possible.
But say you see no collimation movement with the earlier steps. Does that mean you will not see collimation movement with the AC? No. It is incredibly sensitive, displaying changes with movement in the low thousandths of an inch. You can be assured that if you see no movement in the AC with altitude change, there is none to speak of.
If, at a future date, you decide to get a Paracorr to eliminate coma, then you should definitely invest in an autocollimator. Until then, just be careful with steps 1-3 and I think you'll be fine.
If there are some design issues in GSO scopes that result in collimation changes with altitude, but are easily fixed by $0.50 of parts from Home Depot, I don't regard that as a design flaw. It's probably due to an economy in manufacturing. No big deal.
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JR1560
super member
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: Athens, Ga. USA
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2766732 - 11/23/08 07:36 PM
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If there are some design issues in GSO scopes that result in collimation changes with altitude, but are easily fixed by $0.50 of parts from Home Depot, I don't regard that as a design flaw. It's probably due to an economy in manufacturing. No big deal.
I don't think I would buy a car from you Don. I think the issues I raised are valid. I'll send you the bills if it's more.
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CatseyeMan
Vendor (Cats Eye Collimation)
   
Reged: 12/16/04
Loc: Madison, AL USA
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: matthew2000tx]
#2766822 - 11/23/08 08:39 PM
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... but what about making a "How to video with narration" that takes us through the whole process with Catseye from marking the Primary all the way to the last collimation check.
Thanks for the feedback; coincidentally, such a video is already in the making. In the meantime, see this written step-by-step with graphics:
7 Steps for Perfect Collimation
and see this "visual" Pictorial Sequence by my friend Mike Sedonio:
Mike Sedonio CATSEYE Pictorial Sequence
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Wave Vector
sage
Reged: 04/01/06
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2766903 - 11/23/08 09:40 PM
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Mr. Starman what metrics does one use in evaluating an auto-collimator?
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Loc: Los Angeles
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Wave Vector]
#2767097 - 11/24/08 01:10 AM
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Here, Nils Olof Carlin argues the autocollimator does not have any inherent advantage in accuracy over a cheshire or barlowed laser in achieving accurate collimation of the primary mirror:
http://web.telia.com/~u41105032/Acoll/Acoll.htm
Carlin implies that secondary alignment (actually focuser alignment) can be improved by use of the autocollimator but only over the use of an imprecise sight tube, not necessarily a laser.
But let's look at the necessary pointing accuracy of the sight tube or laser at f/4.5:
.005x(4.5)^3=0.46mm maximum allowable tolerance of focuser axis alignment. At the distance to the mirror, can you estimate the position of the laser to that accuracy? That's less than 1/50 inch (.018, or 18 thousandths). And that's the maximum allowable error. Say you have a laser with a beam point small enough at the mirror's distance that you might estimate its position to within an error circle of that diameter.
Then you are within tolerances.
But if you use a Paracorr, the tolerances tighten by a divisor of 6 to .003", and I don't care what laser you use--you simply cannot place the beam on the primary to that degree of accuracy. A laser's beam is not fine enough to do it. [Someone with more knowledge of the math involved can point out my error if I make one here.]
This refers to focuser axis tilt error, not primary mirror tilt error.
Yet, an autocollimator can easily see that amount of error, and, if read correctly, can correct the focuser-secondary axis to that level of accuracy. I've used a well-collimated laser with a small aperture stop in my own scope to collimate the focuser-secondary alignment, and, after collimation, still saw residual errors with the autocollimator that could be reduced.
I say reduced and not eliminated because my eyes are simply not capable of focusing the 4 stacked images in the autocollimator at the same time. They do not appear, to my eye, *exactly* the same size and the edges of the centermark stack appear soft because different focus is needed to see each image. I can only stack them until they appear stacked to my eye, and the reflection of the AC pupil appears as a black dot in the center of the stacked images.
Now, if I was able, with the laser, of getting the focuser axis within tolerances, would I see a visual improvement at the eyepiece with the AC? No.
Would I be able to improve on the laser's collimation with an autocollimator?
Yes.
But is it likely I can achieve the same level of collimation accuracy with a laser that I can achieve with an autocollimator?
My answer to that explains why I do not collimate my scope with a laser.
I'll go on to elaborate that I do not collimate my scope in the dark. If I did, and I did not want to set up some imaginative way to illuminate the centermark on the primary so I could see the 4 reflections, then I probably would use a laser and use a barlow or Blug.
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Relativist
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/11/03
Loc: OC, CA, USA
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2767105 - 11/24/08 01:24 AM
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I have both a laser and catseye system. I use the laser only when I'm in a hurry, and maybe one step with the catseye if I can. Otherwise I do two steps with the laser and the catseye.
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DeepSpaceTour
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 10/25/05
Loc: In the dark and"WAY"out there!
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2767287 - 11/24/08 07:24 AM
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.....[snip]Yet, an autocollimator can easily see that amount of error
....But you can't see any visual improvement at the eyepiece.
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Now, if I was able, with the laser, of getting the focuser axis within tolerances, would I see a visual improvement at the eyepiece with the AC? No. Would I be able to improve on the laser's collimation with an autocollimator? Yes.
I hesitate to go here and say this,for fear of being accused of heresy,but the difference between accurate lazer collimation,and a chance that the images are not perfectly stacked,but almost,and having the images absolutely perfectly stacked with the autocollimator makes absolutely NO,NONE,NOTA,difference at the eyepiece,these are my findings through trial and error...there is a point of collimation where "it's not going to get any better visually" your just stacking the images perfectly to achieve,as perfect collimation as your tools allow,but makes no difference visually at the eyepiece,basically to satisfy yourself,but that's it.......soooo I don't use the autocollimator anymore,why bother,when it makes no difference at the eyepiece,a well collimated single beam and barlowed collimator gets you accurately collimated enough.
As someone already stated when you collimate a scope,moving the scope around will make the collimation move around a little bit,there is flex going on in the scope at different points,no matter what....put in an autocollimator and move the scope around.....you'll see,but that little bit of movement,makes no difference at the eyepiece,at least not that the average(none super human) eye can detect.
These are my findings on this collimation issue.....now... .....here it comes... ....
Clear skies.
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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/04
Loc: Bradenton, FL
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Starman1]
#2767344 - 11/24/08 08:39 AM
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...let's look at the necessary pointing accuracy of the sight tube or laser at f/4.5:
.005x(4.5)^3=0.46mm maximum allowable tolerance of focuser axis alignment.
I think you meant .005xD for the allowable focuser axial tolerance (with Paracorr) which works out to about 2mm. If the scope is used without a Paracorr, the tolerance is a whopping 12mm!
The tolerance you were evaluating above is the primary mirror axial tolerance for high performance applications. At f/4.5, the 0.46mm tolerance might seem almost impossible to maintain. But given the fact that both the Cheshire eyepiece and Barlowed laser magnify the error 2X, the magnified tolerance only needs to be maintained to +/- ~1mm, which is a very easy read with a properly matched center spot. For example, if one uses a Cheshire with a 0.5-inch perforation and a center spot with a 0.4-inch outside diameter, the annulus between the two with perfect alignment will be 0.05-inch wide. A 1mm error is about 0.04-inch, which means the annulus will appear to be scrunched on one side to 0.01-inch and open on the other to 0.09-inch--in other words, it will stick out like a sore thumb! Yet even this obvious error is within tolerance...
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Now, if I was able, with the laser, of getting the focuser axis within tolerances, would I see a visual improvement at the eyepiece with the AC? No.
I personally find that if I take the time to carefully align the focuser and primary mirror axes with my Glatter laser, I can skip autocollimator verification--and I'm working at f/4! And that's pretty much what I do after dark. But if I have the ambient light to work with, the autocollimator lets me see any residual errors as well as any potentially troublesome mechanicals so I can resolve these problems before I start observing.
Edited by Vic Menard (11/24/08 11:21 AM)
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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/04
Loc: Bradenton, FL
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: DeepSpaceTour]
#2767429 - 11/24/08 09:45 AM
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...the difference between accurate laser collimation,and a chance that the images are not perfectly stacked,but almost,and having the images absolutely perfectly stacked with the autocollimator makes absolutely NO,NONE,NOTA,difference at the eyepiece...
Assuming you're within tolerance for the performance level you require, the two tools become redundant. I personally don't see a problem with the concept of redundant verification.
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...there is a point of collimation where "it's not going to get any better visually" your just stacking the images perfectly to achieve,as perfect collimation as your tools allow,but makes no difference visually at the eyepiece,basically to satisfy yourself,but that's it...
While it is satisfying to be able to achieve a perfect stack with the autocollimator, I think it's much more important that the perfect stack should fall between the close jumbles at the zenith and working horizon to maintain axial tolerances (+/-) within the various mechanicals.
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...soooo I don't use the autocollimator anymore,why bother,when it makes no difference at the eyepiece,a well collimated single beam and barlowed collimator gets you accurately collimated enough.
Like I said above, that's pretty much what I do once it gets dark. But along with redundant verification, the autocollimator also is a valuable tool for assessing where mechanical flexure is originating (specifically, for evaluating the impact on the focuser axis). And at f/4, with a Paracorr, even though I can get the axial alignment nearly perfect with my Glatter, I still consider the autocollimator to be an essential tool.
At least now, we seem to have conquered most (if not all) of the collimation gremlins with modern tools and procedures. There are, of course, more image killers on the other side of accurate collimation--inadequate mirror support, temperature differentials, limited seeing, and if you're using your eyes instead of a camera... Given the typical signal to noise ratio most of us deal with on a nightly basis, it's nice to know we can control some of the problems!
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...there is flex going on in the scope at different points,no matter what....put in an autocollimator and move the scope around.....you'll see,but that little bit of movement,makes no difference at the eyepiece,at least not that the average(none super human) eye can detect.
I agree with your statement regarding flexure, but I'm not sure that your conclusion is always correct. As long as the axial error attributed to mechanical flexure falls within the prescribed tolerance for your performance expectation, then the alignment is "good enough". A good example would be using a Dob to view Eta Carina at the Winter Star Party. Although the target object is only a few degrees above the horizon where the axial alignment is surely outside of the high performance tolerance, I usually use lower magnifications (rarely more than 10X per inch of aperture) to get as much of the nebula as possible in the field of view. Lowering the magnification relaxes the axial tolerances... There are many good reasons we wait for planets to rise well above the horizon before we start powering up.
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Starman1
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Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug??
[Re: Vic Menard]
#2767544 - 11/24/08 10:45 AM
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For example, if one uses a Cheshire with a 0.5-inch perforation
I presume you are talking about the diameter of the central black area in the cheshire.
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and a center spot with a 0.4-inch outside diameter, the annulus between the two with perfect alignment will be 0.05-inch wide. A 1mm error is about 0.4-inch
I think you mean 0.04 inch
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which means the annulus will appear to be scrunched on one side to 0.1-inch and open on the other to 0.9-inch
Don't you mean squeezed to 0.01 inch on one side (.05-.04) and expanded to 0.09 (.05+.04)on the other?
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in other words, it will stick out like a sore thumb! Yet even this obvious error is within tolerance...
Agreed. A difference of 9 times the gap is going to be visible.
Well, the implications of your post, along with Bill's, is that the autocollimator's improvement in collimation produces empty collimation, since it can't be seen.
But I'll make a few contentions that seem to be well supported by what I see in the field: --having collimation that is more accurate can help compensate for collimation shifts that occur in many scopes' mechanicals during the night as the scopes are shifted in altitude and mechanical flexures and movements occur. Such small errors will stay within tolerances if the original collimation was closer to perfect. --the ease of use of an autocollimator to achieve this higher level of collimation accuracy exceeds the ease of use of a barlowed laser. I admit this is a personal preference. --the exact collimation of the primary using a BLUG depends on the accuracy of the focuser (not all have perfectly bored drawtubes, or perfectly round ones for that matter) and the accuracy of placement of the Blug into the focuser. --At least one laser manufacturer saw the difficulties of using a laser for primary collimation and decided to produce a cheshire to sell with its laser. --the use of a barlowed laser attachment that is merely a white circle on the bottom of the laser is difficult unless the focuser drawtube is short or the scope is a larger aperture. --When you add a barlow to a laser you add an additional source of registration error to the system. The exception is the white faced barlow thread-in adapter on the bottom of some lasers. --most users of lasers in the field have neither an accurately collimated laser, nor use a barlowed laser technique to achieve primary collimation (they rely on the return beam). --the use of a laser/barlowed laser combination doesn't result in the same degree of accuracy as the autocollimator, even if the laser is accurate enough. If two tools quickly result in the same effect: collimation good enough to show good star images, but one is more accurate/sensitive than the other, then the latter is the superior tool. That doesn't mean that both techniques don't work, merely that one technique is inherently more accurate than the other.
One tool, which I wish was in production, eliminates many of my above objections to the use of a laser for primary collimation: the focused Krupa collimator ( Krupa ). This tool could easily replace the barlowed laser for primary collimation. It should be relatively cheap, too, since an LED is going to be inexpensive to obtain and manufacture.
Now Vic knows I am, to a certain degree , playing devil's advocate here. Because I know that good collimation can be obtained with lasers and barlows. But not entirely. Passive tools can be safely used to collimate and they are not prone to miscollimation, are easier to use (personal judgment there), and in the case of the autocollimator possessed of a higher degree of accuracy with greater mechanical simplicity than the equivalent barlowed laser technique.
Use what you like and patience will pay off with the goal of collimation that produces your scope's best images. But put me down as a passionate advocate for passive tools rather than lasers.
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