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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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calibos
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/18/07

Loc: Ireland
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: CatseyeMan]
      #2774698 - 11/28/08 08:20 AM

I think we all strive for the best collimation we can get to get the best out of our Newts but I think there are two camps.

There is one camp that I myself would be in :

"I strive to get the absolute best collimation I can get"...up to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. In other words, once I reached the point where further investment in time taken for collimation or $$ spent for tools yeilded me only marginal collimation accuracy, well thats where I called a halt to the pursuit of further accuracy. That point for me was the cost of a quality barlowed laser in the form of a Glatter Laser and the 3 or 4 minutes max time spent collimating.

The other camp see's it thus:

"I strive to get the absolute best collimation I can get"...at all costs, be that in time spent collimating or investment in collimation tools.

Netheir camp is wrong. Horses for Courses etc.


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CatseyeMan
Vendor (Cats Eye Collimation)
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Reged: 12/16/04

Loc: Madison, AL USA
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: calibos]
      #2774710 - 11/28/08 08:48 AM

No doubt, the observer has the last call on how much money and time to throw at collimation - it's the level of personal satisfaction from their scope's performance that is the driver.

What typically happens though to cause reconsideration of their collimation protocol is when thay look through someone else's smaller aperture, shorter f-ratio, highly collimated scope and see better quality images than they see in their own.


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Vixen Optics
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Reged: 06/12/02

Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: CatseyeMan]
      #2774910 - 11/28/08 11:20 AM

I gotta solution for this thread. Just buy an F-7 and be done.

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Galaxyhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 01/02/06

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: calibos]
      #2775035 - 11/28/08 12:30 PM

Quote:

The other camp see's it thus:

"I strive to get the absolute best collimation I can get"...at all costs, be that in time spent collimating or investment in collimation tools.

Netheir camp is wrong. Horses for Courses etc.





For me, since I spent allot of time & $$$ building my scope, a few extra bucks for collimating tools is a very small price to try to get the best results that I can. Why would I cheat myself out of all my scope can deliver?

Now would I be able to tell the difference between 90% and a 98% collimated scope, I'm sure that I could not. But at least I'm never at a point of wondering, could it be better.


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DeepSpaceTour
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Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: In the dark and"WAY"out there!
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #2775062 - 11/28/08 12:46 PM

Quote:

I gotta solution for this thread. Just buy an F-7 and be done.






Clear skies.


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: calibos]
      #2775118 - 11/28/08 01:23 PM

Quote:

I think we all strive for the best collimation we can get to get the best out of our Newts but I think there are two camps.
There is one camp that I myself would be in :
"I strive to get the absolute best collimation I can get"...up to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in.



I think most people (with at least a basic understanding of collimation mechanics and how alignment affects their scope's performance) belong to this camp. I collect collimation tools so I can stay "hands on" with what's available, but I mostly use two tools and I can usually resolve any collimation error. At most star parties, I spend a good part of the late afternoon (at least an hour or two) collimating--I usually end up collimating my own scope later in the dark (about five minutes, tops).

Quote:

The other camp see's it thus:
"I strive to get the absolute best collimation I can get"...at all costs, be that in time spent collimating or investment in collimation tools.



The obsessive compulsive collimator--unfortunately, with all the time and money they spend, they seem to never be satisfied with their final alignment or their scope's optical performance.

Quote:

Neither camp is wrong. Horses for Courses etc.



I'm not sure I would agree with that, having dealt with obsessive compulsive collimators for many years. I think though, that there's a third camp, populated by people who purchase collimation tools like they purchase eyepieces (or telescopes!)--on a trial basis. Eventually, after they've discovered what works for them and meets their personal expectations, those tools/eyepieces find a place in their eyepiece case, while the others, end up on astromart...

Edited by Vic Menard (11/28/08 01:30 PM)


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Nils Olof Carlin
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/26/04

Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #2775292 - 11/28/08 03:16 PM

Permit me a few comments, though coming late into this thread.

I am quite sure that whichever tools you use, "passive" with AC or "active" with laser, it is possible to collimate your telescope far better than you can expect to tell visually.

You might consider what collimation errors do: perfect collimation of the primary mirror axis will put the spot of zero coma accurately in the center of the field of view - an error will put that spot a little off center. You can try: if you can find one spot within the FOV but a bit off center and get a clearer, more contrasty view, then the primary collimation is off by just that offset (this could happen - most likely, the marker isn't exactly centered, or else but much less likely, the optical center is not in the true center of the blank. If this is the case, star collimate accurately and move the center spot accordingly. This is the only reason I can think of for star collimation!).
You could always try and see how much error it takes before you can see it - collimate the secondary, then "carefully" miscollimate the primary using a Cheshire or barlowed laser (the true miscollimation is half the shift of the spot! - or if you use the AC, 1/8 of the distance between the most separated spots).

Miscollimation of the focuser axis will affect only the outer parts of the FOV - try to detect a difference in star images around the field edge - and see if you can move the focuser to get the best sharpness at either of the "opposite" edges of the field.

The tolerance I estimate for focuser axis error is < 1/30 of the primary diameter - this will make the tilt defocusing error < 10% of the total error (dominated by coma) anywhere within the field (this isn't even dependent on F/ ratio!). Given that the Paracorr reduces the coma of a paraboloid mirror by a factor of 6, it can be meaningful to reduce the focuser axis error by 6 too - which is likely rather over-ambitious considering the inherent errors of real eyepieces. But since it is easy to achieve, there is no harm, and little time lost, to do even a little better - like going for less than 0.1" centering error for a 18" mirror (that is, less than 0.6" for the most separated images in the AC, given the primary is exact!!!).

This is less important with visual than with photo - if you do wide-field photo with a fast Newtonian, you will use a coma corrector such as the Paracorr or even one of the even more sophisticated coma correctors available, anyway, and tweak the camera mount to get the most uniform star images across the field.

You may strive to get collimation as close to perfect as possible, or else just collimate close enough that errors will be assuredly invisible. This may affect the approach - using a (good) laser collimator with some type of barlow attachment (such as the Blug) will get you all the way in two steps (after centering the secondary of course) - first adjust the secondary to center the beam at the primary, then use the barlow attachment to adjust the primary - and you're done (with the 1mm aperture, it can be even simpler!).

While the AC will magnify the apparent errors (4 times the displacement in the Cheshire or barlowed laser, 6 times the misalignment of the focuser axis - or with the CDP, twice), the disadvantage is that what you see is the mixture of errors and you have to sort out which is what. But with proper tools of either type, you won't be able to tell the difference looking at celestial objects.


Nils Olof


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Nils Olof Carlin]
      #2775323 - 11/28/08 03:52 PM

Quote:

...You may strive to get collimation as close to perfect as possible, or else just collimate close enough that errors will be assuredly invisible. This may affect the approach - using a (good) laser collimator with some type of barlow attachment (such as the Blug) will get you all the way in two steps (after centering the secondary of course)...



That "centering the secondary" is the part that many novices, and some experts, seem to have the most difficulty with. It's certainly the reason for more collimation discussions than any other misalignment.

Quote:

...(with the 1mm aperture, it can be even simpler!).



Yes it is! (As long as the target area is reasonably visible.)

Quote:

While the AC will magnify the apparent errors (4 times the displacement in the Cheshire or barlowed laser, 6 times the misalignment of the focuser axis - or with the CDP, twice), the disadvantage is that what you see is the mixture of errors and you have to sort out which is what.



Even using the CDP to resolve the individual axial errors, I still feel the main purpose of the AC is to use it to ensure that the axial alignment technique (before AC) meets the prescribed tolerances--a quality control tool for redundant verification. Once the user becomes proficient with whatever tool(s) he decides to use and can routinely achieve axial alignment that delivers the performance he expects, the AC, like the star test, may become less important.

The CDP works so well with the AC--I use it with the laser (w/1mm aperture stop) too! Decollimate the primary to see (and correct) the focuser axial error (laser dot and diffraction pattern relative to the silhouette of the center spot) and then align the silhouette, just like the Barlowed laser, to correct the primary mirror axial error.


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Jason D
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #2776146 - 11/29/08 04:10 AM

Does anyone diagree with the following statements?

==> Assuming good focuser axial alignment

1- If the AC mirror is larger or equal to the size of the secondary then darkening the autocollimator image would indicate a good primary axial alignment (no crescent)
2- If the AC mirror is smaller than the secondary (which is the typical case) then the primary can be tilted by as much as the following formula yet maintain a darkened AC image

Theta = atan((Radius difference between AC and secondary) / Primary_focal_length)

For example: Using a 1.25" AC with a 2.6" secondary for XT10 (1200mm FL) translates to a potential latertal focal placement error of upto 17mm while still maintaining a darkened AC image. Ths is more than 10X worse than allowable error.

Jason


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CatseyeMan
Vendor (Cats Eye Collimation)
*****

Reged: 12/16/04

Loc: Madison, AL USA
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Jason D]
      #2776250 - 11/29/08 07:50 AM

Quote:

Does anyone diagree with the following statements?

==> Assuming good focuser axial alignment

1- If the AC mirror is larger or equal to the size of the secondary then darkening the autocollimator image would indicate a good primary axial alignment (no crescent)
2- If the AC mirror is smaller than the secondary (which is the typical case) then the primary can be tilted by as much as the following formula yet maintain a darkened AC image

Theta = atan((Radius difference between AC and secondary) / Primary_focal_length)

For example: Using a 1.25" AC with a 2.6" secondary for XT10 (1200mm FL) translates to a potential latertal focal placement error of upto 17mm while still maintaining a darkened AC image. Ths is more than 10X worse than allowable error.

Jason




... simulating your scenario in my Virtual telescope, I see light creeping in to the AC view at .395 degrees of Primary tilt which converts to 8.28mm linear distance off-center at 1200 mm FL or "half" your number.


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: CatseyeMan]
      #2776307 - 11/29/08 08:36 AM

Just thinking out loud before my first cup of coffee...
If the secondary mirror is smaller than the autocollimator mirror, the internal reflection of the secondary mirror should fit entirely inside the autocollimator mirror reflection. To me, this means a perfectly aligned system would show the stacked triangles inside the darkened internal reflection of the secondary mirror surrounded by a bright annulus inside the reflection of the autocollimator mirror. If this is correct, then the bright annulus surrounding the darkened internal reflection of the secondary mirror indicates perfect secondary mirror alignment and has nothing to do with the axial alignment (consistent with axial alignment in the presence of secondary mirror skew and/or improper offset).

Jim sent me a prototype "autocat" a year or two ago (the autocollimator mirror had a reflective "ring" attached to its face... lots of reflections and a wild ride even when the alignment was very close.


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Nils Olof Carlin
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/26/04

Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #2776386 - 11/29/08 09:55 AM

My conclusion is that "darkening" is not a criterion at all for collimation:

Try this thought experiment: put a little spot on the primary, an inch or so away from the true center spot, then use this extra spot for collimation. Now the autocollimator is as dark as it will ever be, with no crescent, though the miscollimation is so bad you won't even see any of the reflections of the "real" spot.

Anyway, regardless of miscollimation, after sufficient number of reflections, the pupil of the AC will be imaged back on itself, and appears to fill the face of the autocollimator - with perfect collimation, this happens after fewer reflections. With miscollimation, though, the multiple reflections of the AC itself will be unstacked and a "crescent" may appear (by 4A + 2B, see here

the section beginning "Let us also regard the reflections of the autocollimator:"
if you really like to dig deep (I rather hesitate myself, after these years - but the situation of "false" collimation happens not when the errors are zero but when they match: 4A=-2B)

Nils Olof


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Nils Olof Carlin]
      #2776439 - 11/29/08 10:38 AM

Quote:

My conclusion is that "darkening" is not a criterion at all for collimation:



I agree--it's only an indicator (assuming the primary mirror center spot is used for the alignment reference) that one is approaching a "close enough" axial alignment to begin to see the rest of the primary mirror center spot reflections which will be used for collimation.

Quote:

...if you really like to dig deep (I rather hesitate myself, after these years - but the situation of "false" collimation happens not when the errors are zero but when they match: 4A=-2B)



Where the two axes intersect at the ROC.


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Jason D
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #2776540 - 11/29/08 11:50 AM

Thanks, Jim... I guess my formula is way over-simplified...

Vic, Nils, I did say
"==> Assuming good focuser axial alignment"
Which means I am only considering the case when "B=0"

Let me paraphrase...
For the case:
1- B=0
2- Secondary mirror is as large or smaller than the AC mirror
Will darkening without visible "crescent" constitute good primary axial alignment (the focuser axis is assumed to be good)?

Jason


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Nils Olof Carlin
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/26/04

Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Jason D]
      #2776577 - 11/29/08 12:23 PM

Jason,

if the secondary is large enough to show you the edge of the AC reflected twice, you can see if the reflections coincide or if there is some crescent - if they do, and B=0, then A=0 within some tolerance. If the secondary is too small for that, you can't use that criterion. But the example seems a bit far-fetched to me - if you use the CDP to get the focuser axis right first, you would use the stacking to adjust the primary, too. Or?

Nils Olof


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JR1560
super member


Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: Athens, Ga. USA
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: Jason D]
      #2776743 - 11/29/08 02:06 PM

Quote:

I bought the EasyTester autocollimator tool long time ago and ended up returning it. It is NOT an autocollimator as the name of the tool suggests. It does have the perforated flat mirror but it lacks precision. In fact, the document of the tool does not even mention stacking ghost images. It simply states to adjust the primary until the view is darkened but mathematically that is not enough precision.
Bottom line: JSP EasyTester auto-collimator is a very expensive collimation cap.

Jason






Enclosed herein is an email from JSP which includes his permission to post his response.

From: Jack Schmidling arf@mc.net
Subject: Re: autocollimation
Date: November 28, 2008 11:57:07 PM EST
To:

" It is NOT an autocollimator as the name of the tool
suggests. It does have the perforated flat mirror but it lacks precision.....


It is an autocollimator by definition but the precision is defined by how it is used. Most scopes lack the precision to use it for more than coarse adjustments but that is a still a useful step.

As a final point, there is no tool that collimates as accurately as a star and that must always be the final step no matter how one gets there.

Bottom line: JSP EasyTester auto-collimator is a very expensive collimation cap."

I don't know what that means but it is an inexpensive auto-collimator.

This matter is presently being discussed on the Cloudy Nights Forum. I think you should join the discussion since your product has been mentioned. I think you should respond.


Apparently one has to be a member as I can not post but you may feel free to post my response to you mail.

Thanks for your interest,

js


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DarkEnergy
Vendor - Hotech


Reged: 10/07/08

Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? new [Re: JR1560]
      #2776795 - 11/29/08 02:43 PM

I have been reading the wonderful discusions on how precise each tool can achieve "near perfect" collimation. But I always have one question in the back of my mind when I see my friends using the tools. I know for a fact that you can rotate the laser in the focuser to see if the laser is collimated. But how do you know if the Catseye or AC is collimated when loaded in the focuser? Is there a tool or method to check if the device is collimated?

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Jason D
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Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? [Re: DarkEnergy]
      #2776826 - 11/29/08 03:09 PM

Quote:

But how do you know if the Catseye or AC is collimated when loaded in the focuser? Is there a tool or method to check if the device is collimated?



Same method. Rotate the AC in the focuser -- assuming quality focuser. AC with lesser quality will slightly unstack reflections.
Jason


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? [Re: Jason D]
      #2776874 - 11/29/08 03:46 PM

Quote:

...Vic, Nils, I did say
"==> Assuming good focuser axial alignment"
Which means I am only considering the case when "B=0"



But the secondary mirror placement would still need to be at least as accurate as the primary mirror axial tolerance...

Quote:

Let me paraphrase...
For the case:
1- B=0
2- Secondary mirror is as large or smaller than the AC mirror
Will darkening without visible "crescent" constitute good primary axial alignment (the focuser axis is assumed to be good)?



Given the necessary secondary mirror placement precision, and with the apparent diameter of the secondary mirror the same as the apparent diameter of the autocollimator mirror, I suspect a bright, visible crescent (looking past the secondary mirror) would indicate misalignment, but I'm not sure that it would be any more accurate than the crescent caused by the background reflection of the autocollimator mirror compared to the foreground reflection of the autocollimator mirror (and the pupil would have to be very small).

I should have a few new animations up on the website this weekend showing the autocollimator in action that should help to clear up any other questions...


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Jason D
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: Catseye vs. Howie Glatter and Blug?? [Re: Vic Menard]
      #2776911 - 11/29/08 04:14 PM Attachment (61 downloads)

Here is the reason I was asking these questions:
Will the idea shown in the attachment work?
Wouldn't a crescent appear even if the secondary size is larger than the AC mirror size?
What about if we include a perforated removable lid to the AC tool where the internal surface is reflective and the outside is dark? Wouldn't any slight miscollimation show brighten some of the holes? I actually gave this idea a shot sometime ago by taping an aluminum foil to the bottom of my AC then poked holes in it. I did crumble/unfolded the aluminum foil to have a non-flat reflective surface. I also used a permanent black marker to darken the bottom side. The idea “seems” to have worked however, the size of the perforated holes, placement of the holes, and the number of holes needed further optimization.
Note: This is a theoretical discussion and I am not suggesting this idea (if it works) is practical.
Jason


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