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nightcrawler
member
Reged: 10/23/07
Posts: 69
Loc: Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Hi Folks,
I am just getting into AP and want to do some DSLR imaging. I've got my eye on either a Canon 40D or 50D or a Nikon D90. I am not really interested in modding the camera. It will be used for other things, too.
It appears that Canon cameras have been the brand of choice for AP because of their lower noise at higher ISOs and their greater RAW color depth. The D90, however, is brand new and I was wondering if it fixes any of the Nikon problems some folks seem to have (noise reduction, mode 3 or whatever). I'm a real novice at this so would appreciate any advice you have.
I'm leaning mostly towards the 50D, but the extra $300 is hard to swallow right now. However, the D90 has some nice features that the 40D doesn't, such as a better LCD for live view. I originally liked the fact that the D90 had the inexpensive wireless shutter release, but that seems to be a minus rather than a plus on many AP forums. I don't totally understand why, so any light you can shed would be great. I don't particularly care about the extra 2 MP difference or the movie making gimmick in the D90.
I was also wondering if any of you Nikon shooters out there would be willing to post some shots you've made with an unmodified Nikon DSLR. I can easily find Canon imagery, so I'd like to see what the competition can do. I had originally decided about 95% in favor of getting the Nikon, but then I did a little Googling about AP and it looks like articles from about 1-2 years ago favor Canon. That's the reason for this post. Have things changed? Is Canon still the leader for AP?
Please try to be as objective as possible. I really don't want this to turn into a Canon vs. Nikon flame war.
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Scope: Omni XLT 150
Eyepieces: Baader Hyperion 3.5mm & 8mm EP
Camera: Canon EOS 50D
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Brian Walton
sage
Reged: 10/23/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Lawrenceville, GA
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I have been using a Nikon D200 with moderate success (due to I am learning) The problems I have have been processing not the images themselves. The Nikon I have has had no problems, with that said I bought a Canon XS (1000D) because as the nikon does great for the images most of the software for AP is geared toward the Canon and the possibility of modding the camera at a later date is a plus. I would not change over to Canon for my daytime photography since I have a fortune in Nikon lenses already. The kit lens on the XS is an 18-55 IS and boy it feels like it was made cheaply compared to the kit lenses I got with the Nikons (D50, D200 D100) in the past. Other than that if primarily for daytime the Nikon will do just fine as will the Canon so I say features is the way to make the choice.
I also wanted a second camera after almost dropping the D200 a couple of times, would rather lose the Canon from a drop than the nikon.
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Brian
Astro Photos
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Meade LX200R 12", Orion Atlas mount
Meade 8" SCT OTA, Celestron C6R-GT, Vixen ED100sf
Meade 80ED, William Optics ZS 66-SD, Orion XT10
Coronado PST, LPI, DSI, DSI Pro, SBIG ST-8 w/CFW-8a
Nikon P5100, Nikon D200, Canon XS (modified)
Edited by Brian Walton (10/14/08 02:17 AM)
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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Canon is still the leader and Christian Buil tells us why. Ok, his review is about the D3/D300 vs 40D, but there is little reason to assume that the D90 acts differently. Nikon acts real stubborn to put a median filtered image in the Raw instead of a true Raw image like Canon does.
Clear skies,
Koen
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Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 2492
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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I am a Nikon guy tried and true...PERFECT daytime cams...really cant be beat(IMO)..BUT for AP go with a Canon.. IF I were going to buy an astro DSLR cam right now it would be the 5DmarkII or 5D(full frame sensors).. otherwise your 50D is a great choice..much better than the D90(FOR ASTRO USE!!!!!)
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Brent Oliver
WO-66SD*WO-Megrez102ED-Special Edition
CGE Pier-Mounted
Artemis285*OrionSSII-Mono
AstronomikLRGBHOS*AtikMFW
HyperCams&MODS
My Gallery
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skyler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/16/06
Posts: 1671
Loc: TGPNW
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I was looking at this too and wanted to get back to the Nikon camp since my D50 days. The 90 has a timer device available like the TC80N3 so that is an option. I read and saw some photos online showing that the 90 actually performed a smidge better at noise but equated the sharpness of the D300 and D3 cams. I have also read some things that stated maybe the contrary but there were no photos to back it up.
So I guess that means someone has to give it a go and maybe that person will be me. I admit I miss my 40D as it was a great camera but for astro, I like my QHY even better.
Good Luck,
S
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Heine DK
member
Reged: 03/30/08
Posts: 83
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Hi Nightcrawler,
I'm using an unmodded Nikon D300. I just started out with my first telescope this spring, so I'm still learning.
Anyway you can check my Nikon pictures here: Heine's Astro pics on Flickr
I'm happy with the camera (had it before I was starting the AP), but if I had to get a new one today I would probably pick an used 40D and change the filter.
Br
Heine
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skyler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/16/06
Posts: 1671
Loc: TGPNW
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Nice shots Heine. I like the quality of the images seen with the D300. You probably prefer to use as a land camera too so no mods in future? I think a mod'd D300 would be very nice.
Thanks for the images for comparison.
S
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Markovich
sage
Reged: 05/22/07
Posts: 200
Loc: Central Ohio
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Well, Canon does have the historical edge for AP in a DSLR package. The new Nikons like the D300 and D90 use a CMOS chip instead of a CCD chip as used in the D50,etc. Dark frames Ive seen online ( dpreview.com) from a D90 show no amp glow and very good noise. Canons tend to have punchier colors and sharpness as their default settings which Nikons can also do with a few adjustments in their settings menu. As for AP, I think Canon still probably have an edge, but the Nikons are doing much better. For all around use, I'd stick with a Nikon simply due to their build quality and overall IQ.
Mark
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"The secret to flying is to throw yourself at the ground...and miss!"
Douglas Adams
Obsession 15" with Swayze mirror
Celestron Nexstar 5i
Celestron Ultima C8 PEC
Orion Starblast
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nightcrawler
member
Reged: 10/23/07
Posts: 69
Loc: Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Thanks for all of the info everyone! Those are some sweet shots, Heine. Thanks!
It sounds like there's a consensus that both brands are great but Canon has the edge for AP. I think I've got an EOS 50D in my near future.
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Scope: Omni XLT 150
Eyepieces: Baader Hyperion 3.5mm & 8mm EP
Camera: Canon EOS 50D
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Lord Beowulf
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/13/08
Posts: 674
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Wow! I wish I'd seen this (or a similar) thread before I bought my D90 a few weeks ago. I'd made the mistake of doing my own hot pixels test in the store, and just because I didn't see anything on the display (like I did on my first Olympus point and shoot years ago) I thought I was OK. While the D90 is a great camera, I have to say I'm disappointed in the number of hot pixels I see in even a 30 second shot. Turning on the filtering does eliminate them from a black test shot, but the post processing takes FOREVER! I have not had a chance to try any astrophotography with the filter on (still getting parts to improve my balance and tracking stability, etc.). Hopefully the skies will clear and I can get out and take some this weekend! I wonder if it's too late to return/exchange the D90..?
Beo
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Celestron 8SE w/ Zhumell Focuser, Orion ST-80 & StarShoot AG. 11" NexStar GPS w/ MotoFocus.
CGEM w/ ADM Saddle, Knobs, and SBS Dual Saddles.
Modded Canon 450D & Nikon D90 DSLR w/ various adapters.
Denkmeier PowerxSwitch S2, WO 1.25" & 2" Dielectric Diags.
TV 8, 13, 17 mm Ethos, 1rpd 30 mm, Astro Tech 40 mm, Celestron 1.25" EP & filter kit.
1.25" Filters: TV OIII Filter; Lumicon selector, UHC, H-Beta, & Deep Sky.
f6.3 reducer/corrector & SCT filters.
Various custom carrying cases.
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nightcrawler
member
Reged: 10/23/07
Posts: 69
Loc: Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Well, I got my 50D a couple of weeks ago and for daytime/normal photography I love it. I haven't had time to do any real AP yet, but my T-ring just arrived so I'll be doing some basics some time soon. I'll probably start with prime focus shots of the Moon and some piggy back shots of DSOs.
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Scope: Omni XLT 150
Eyepieces: Baader Hyperion 3.5mm & 8mm EP
Camera: Canon EOS 50D
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astrokido
space wanderer
Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 661
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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nofxrx put it just right I'd say, for a straight feature comparison you'll definately want to see DPreview's side-by-side page of the three cameras you're looking at here.
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- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40
The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com
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Lord Beowulf
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/13/08
Posts: 674
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Well, I feel I need to come back and give an update on where I'm at with my D90. I've managed to get some pretty decent images with my 8SE by manually guiding, but am waiting on my Orion 80T/Autoguider combo to go further.
After seeing the DPreview comparison, I actually feel a bit better as I'd thought the Canons used CCD sensors and was shocked when I'd discovered the Nikon was a CMOS sensor. Now that I know they're both CMOS, I guess I feel better on that.
The one thing I should note is that despite my original assumptions based on reviews of the D3/D300 long exposure adjustment, it appears that the reason for the long post processing times on the D90 is that it is taking dark frames for subtraction, requiring it to post process for at least as long as the original shot. My understanding from some other comments I've seen on the Canon cameras is that this is similar to what they're doing.
The one limitation that the DPreview comparison highlights is the lack of timelapse recording. This has been a complaint of others regarding the features of the rather pricey image acquisition software that Nikon sells. I'm hopeful that they'll fix this in a future revision, but I don't plan to pay for it without that feature. In the meantime I'm building my own USB to IR remote control to allow me to automate this myself. I know I could buy an off-the shelf PC remote pretty cheaply, but this is more fun. In addition, since the one limitation is that there's no feedback from the camera, I'm thinking I can put a couple of sensors on it to detect when the camera has finished imaging and/or post processing.
And just for fun, here's a shot of the Orion nebula. It's only about 5 unguided images that were stable enough for stacking with one dark, but it didn't turn out too badly. I hope to be able to do much better in another few weeks!
Beo
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Celestron 8SE w/ Zhumell Focuser, Orion ST-80 & StarShoot AG. 11" NexStar GPS w/ MotoFocus.
CGEM w/ ADM Saddle, Knobs, and SBS Dual Saddles.
Modded Canon 450D & Nikon D90 DSLR w/ various adapters.
Denkmeier PowerxSwitch S2, WO 1.25" & 2" Dielectric Diags.
TV 8, 13, 17 mm Ethos, 1rpd 30 mm, Astro Tech 40 mm, Celestron 1.25" EP & filter kit.
1.25" Filters: TV OIII Filter; Lumicon selector, UHC, H-Beta, & Deep Sky.
f6.3 reducer/corrector & SCT filters.
Various custom carrying cases.
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skyler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/16/06
Posts: 1671
Loc: TGPNW
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What is the ASA and the exposure time used for the image of M42?
S
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Lord Beowulf
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/13/08
Posts: 674
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Dear Skyler:
That was taken at 1000 ISO with 30 second exposures. Attached is one of the unprocessed frames just for comparison. Note that these have been reduced to 20% of the original in each direction.
Beo
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Celestron 8SE w/ Zhumell Focuser, Orion ST-80 & StarShoot AG. 11" NexStar GPS w/ MotoFocus.
CGEM w/ ADM Saddle, Knobs, and SBS Dual Saddles.
Modded Canon 450D & Nikon D90 DSLR w/ various adapters.
Denkmeier PowerxSwitch S2, WO 1.25" & 2" Dielectric Diags.
TV 8, 13, 17 mm Ethos, 1rpd 30 mm, Astro Tech 40 mm, Celestron 1.25" EP & filter kit.
1.25" Filters: TV OIII Filter; Lumicon selector, UHC, H-Beta, & Deep Sky.
f6.3 reducer/corrector & SCT filters.
Various custom carrying cases.
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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 762
Loc: India
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Quote:
Well, Canon does have the historical edge for AP in a DSLR package. The new Nikons like the D300 and D90 use a CMOS chip instead of a CCD chip as used in the D50,etc. Dark frames Ive seen online ( dpreview.com) from a D90 show no amp glow and very good noise. Canons tend to have punchier colors and sharpness as their default settings which Nikons can also do with a few adjustments in their settings menu. As for AP, I think Canon still probably have an edge, but the Nikons are doing much better. For all around use, I'd stick with a Nikon simply due to their build quality and overall IQ.
Sounds like good advice, Mark, including the all around build of the Nikon. And that's a good tip on the chips. Sounds like the CMOS is a better chip for this purpose than the CCD (do I have that right?). I was considering the Canon D80, which I believe still has the CCD. I'm now heavily leaning toward the Canon 40D.
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AT 72
TMB 92
Orion 120ST
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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 762
Loc: India
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Beo --
How are you finding your D90? Have you done anymore AP with it?
Dale
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AT 72
TMB 92
Orion 120ST
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imargazi
member
Reged: 12/11/08
Posts: 30
Loc: Firestone, CO, USA
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I only have experience with the Nikon D90 so cant comment on the rest, but for anyone who wants to feel better about their D90's capabilities -- here is a shot from a few nights ago. I posted this in its own post already, but figured I would put it here too -- I really think the Nikon D90 is a great camera.
14 x 8 min light, ISO 800
14 x 8 min dark
Orion ED80, CG5-GT, Guided
There are other similarly good and much better images out there, just proud of my image and liking my Nikon.... This has minimal processing so far (I have more work to do) so I know it can be better....
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Ian
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Orion 80mm ED
Celestron 8 SCT
Celestron CG5-GT
Nikon D90
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